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<blockquote data-quote="Jay Verkuilen" data-source="post: 7748599" data-attributes="member: 6873517">I didn't love 4E either, although there were aspects of it I think were pretty good. For instance, it's skill system is pretty decent and skill powers were a cool way to make skills really matter, sometimes in fairly surprising ways such as through Arcane Mutterings suddenly giving the wizard an ability to be much more persuasive than one would ordinarily suppose (having just substituted Arcana). But, 100%, yegads was it slow, especially past about level 12 or so. It also had a marked &quot;dead spot&quot; in the high teen levels for some characters. I forget who said that it had trouble with the handoff between combat and non-combat, but that was definitely true. The economy got nutty, as well. As a former DM of mine said &quot;They simultaneously managed to make magic items necessary and boring.&quot; All that said, there were definitely some good aspects to 4E and a few things that got dropped from it in the transition to 5E I really wish they'd kept. One thing that I think 5E's skill system really would benefit from is a return to some of the good aspects of the skill challenge, which allows DCs to be kept lower by requiring multiple successes. IMO 5E also has too many different types of saving throws, which makes it hard to balance things. That's something 4E had done fairly well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jay Verkuilen, post: 7748599, member: 6873517"] I didn't love 4E either, although there were aspects of it I think were pretty good. For instance, it's skill system is pretty decent and skill powers were a cool way to make skills really matter, sometimes in fairly surprising ways such as through Arcane Mutterings suddenly giving the wizard an ability to be much more persuasive than one would ordinarily suppose (having just substituted Arcana). But, 100%, yegads was it slow, especially past about level 12 or so. It also had a marked "dead spot" in the high teen levels for some characters. I forget who said that it had trouble with the handoff between combat and non-combat, but that was definitely true. The economy got nutty, as well. As a former DM of mine said "They simultaneously managed to make magic items necessary and boring." All that said, there were definitely some good aspects to 4E and a few things that got dropped from it in the transition to 5E I really wish they'd kept. One thing that I think 5E's skill system really would benefit from is a return to some of the good aspects of the skill challenge, which allows DCs to be kept lower by requiring multiple successes. IMO 5E also has too many different types of saving throws, which makes it hard to balance things. That's something 4E had done fairly well. [/QUOTE]

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