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<blockquote data-quote="Jay Verkuilen" data-source="post: 7749191" data-attributes="member: 6873517">I wasn't active online during 3.X. I'd dropped off in the early '00s. I'd played or run so many other skill based games I'd long since used things like SCs.&nbsp; Yeah, D&amp;D has always been niche-protected, and certainly it is the case that 4E was just up front about it.&nbsp; I'm not sure I agree with the fact that you didn't need to know the system. IMO you needed to know it pretty well, certainly once you got over about 10th level. As I said elsewhere in this thread (in a conversation with pemerton), 4E had some things that mitigated against player engagement, most notably excessive turn length. I think we'd long since allowed multiclass rogues, so my memory of a rogues-only type game was a bit skewed. If you were talking about the 2E thief with just humans RAW definitely. Regardless, 4E really assumed that party roles were filled and it was quite challenging not to have them filled IME. In that sense, the party roles were definitely influenced by MMO roles and builds: tank, healer, DPS, etc. As to healing surges, IMO that was one of the good idea of 4E. I really wish they'd differentiated the bard from the cleric healing by having the bard do things like activate hit dice (bad WotC! foolish name for that). Basically the bard is able to make use of what you have in you already but the cleric brings something from the outside. But I'm not at all a fan of the bard as a full caster.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jay Verkuilen, post: 7749191, member: 6873517"] I wasn't active online during 3.X. I'd dropped off in the early '00s. I'd played or run so many other skill based games I'd long since used things like SCs. Yeah, D&D has always been niche-protected, and certainly it is the case that 4E was just up front about it. I'm not sure I agree with the fact that you didn't need to know the system. IMO you needed to know it pretty well, certainly once you got over about 10th level. As I said elsewhere in this thread (in a conversation with pemerton), 4E had some things that mitigated against player engagement, most notably excessive turn length. I think we'd long since allowed multiclass rogues, so my memory of a rogues-only type game was a bit skewed. If you were talking about the 2E thief with just humans RAW definitely. Regardless, 4E really assumed that party roles were filled and it was quite challenging not to have them filled IME. In that sense, the party roles were definitely influenced by MMO roles and builds: tank, healer, DPS, etc. As to healing surges, IMO that was one of the good idea of 4E. I really wish they'd differentiated the bard from the cleric healing by having the bard do things like activate hit dice (bad WotC! foolish name for that). Basically the bard is able to make use of what you have in you already but the cleric brings something from the outside. But I'm not at all a fan of the bard as a full caster. [/QUOTE]

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