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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7749612" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I don't disagree.&nbsp; Explanation and iteration were certainly part of the problem, but smuggling in play priorities that don't mesh with dramatic/abstract scene resolution (whether rightly or wrongly) is also a problem (which can circle back to explanation).&nbsp; I also think if most everyone who ran/played 4e had experience playing/running dramatic scene-based games, the machinery would have been easily understood and deployed in a coherent fashion.&nbsp; For instance, you don't see Blades in the Dark GMs/players or Cortex+ GMs/players complaining about Competing Clocks or Social Action Scenes or Heists being static, dice-rolling affairs.&nbsp; I'm sure you know I agree with that (hence my post above), which is the same reason why I run a great many different types of games.&nbsp; With respect to D&amp;D though, the same thing works the other way (and a third way if you feel like D&amp;D is really a gamist, puzzle-solving, dungeon-exploration test of hard-earned skill).&nbsp; At its heart, much of this discussion (and the last edition war) comes down to &quot;what is the essence of D&amp;D&quot; and &quot;who does it belong to.&quot;&nbsp; There is an enormous contingent of (remaining) folks on ENWorld who feel &quot;the essence of D&amp;D&quot; is (something like) D&amp;D kitchen sink tropes/AD&amp;D default cosmology, Sim priority with related granular exploration (with attendant task resolution) of granular/established setting and/or AP/metaplot, non-mythic martial heroes, and a GM who is very heavily involved in action resolution/plot trajectory.Given that there are always going to be significant disagreement on &quot;the essence of D&amp;D&quot; and &quot;who does D&amp;D belong to&quot; along with EXTREME variance in investment in those questions, entertaining those questions (and relating them to your quote from above) is always going to (effectively) be either a battle cry or a reason to say &quot;eff it&quot; and walk away from conversation.Covered this in my post above and the one before that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7749612, member: 6696971"] I don't disagree. Explanation and iteration were certainly part of the problem, but smuggling in play priorities that don't mesh with dramatic/abstract scene resolution (whether rightly or wrongly) is also a problem (which can circle back to explanation). I also think if most everyone who ran/played 4e had experience playing/running dramatic scene-based games, the machinery would have been easily understood and deployed in a coherent fashion. For instance, you don't see Blades in the Dark GMs/players or Cortex+ GMs/players complaining about Competing Clocks or Social Action Scenes or Heists being static, dice-rolling affairs. I'm sure you know I agree with that (hence my post above), which is the same reason why I run a great many different types of games. With respect to D&D though, the same thing works the other way (and a third way if you feel like D&D is really a gamist, puzzle-solving, dungeon-exploration test of hard-earned skill). At its heart, much of this discussion (and the last edition war) comes down to "what is the essence of D&D" and "who does it belong to." There is an enormous contingent of (remaining) folks on ENWorld who feel "the essence of D&D" is (something like) D&D kitchen sink tropes/AD&D default cosmology, Sim priority with related granular exploration (with attendant task resolution) of granular/established setting and/or AP/metaplot, non-mythic martial heroes, and a GM who is very heavily involved in action resolution/plot trajectory. Given that there are always going to be significant disagreement on "the essence of D&D" and "who does D&D belong to" along with EXTREME variance in investment in those questions, entertaining those questions (and relating them to your quote from above) is always going to (effectively) be either a battle cry or a reason to say "eff it" and walk away from conversation. Covered this in my post above and the one before that. [/QUOTE]

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