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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7750385" data-attributes="member: 996">That begs the question, does Mr. Edwards even know what a 'definition' /is/, because he seems wholly unable to construct one, or at least work himself up to the point he's willing to spit one out...OK, waitaminit: &nbsp;So, basically, core &amp; universal systems, regardless of design philosophy, balance, functionality, or level of complexity?&nbsp; ...oh, here's a real gem...&nbsp;So, isn't Incoherence like hypocrisy is for a post-modern critic:&nbsp; the only sin left that can be decried?&nbsp; Is it a coincidence that the chief examples of incoherence were representatives of the two most-dominant RPGs of 90s?&nbsp; D&amp;D and it's challenger at the time, Storyteller?While, technically, I do have to agree that AD&amp;D and Vampire were both incoherent, I do so only in the natural-language sense.&nbsp; In the same sense, so is Mr. Edwards.&nbsp; Yes, I've seen the sort of 'reverse simulation' I'm talking about, going, prettymuch, all the way back (to 1980, I suppose).&nbsp; Seeing it so vigorously put forth as the one true way had to wait for the edition war, though.&nbsp;Yes, there are many parallels to be found, in other editions, to specific things people actually complained about in 4e.&nbsp; When someone expresses dissatisfaction with a new version of an old product, and cites things that haven't /really/ changed as 'differences' to justify that dissatisfaction, and insists on changing things back across the board, rather than amending the specific items being complained about, chances are, there's something else that /has/ changed that is at the root of the problem. But, for whatever reason, they don't feel comfortable bringing it up.&nbsp; Instead, to get back what is actually desired, we must go through this charade of implausible complaints, nostalgia, factual misstatements back-peddled to meaningless subjective claims, recriminations, accusations, name-calling, etc...&nbsp; all to get the clock rolled back and restore the actual changes, actually at issue, but which are, for whatever reason, unspeakable.That charade is over, D&amp;D has been restored. You can probably work out for yourself what changed, and changed back, and thus what it was really all about, for yourself, without poking anyone on the internet anymore.&nbsp; You've obviously got 4e down, you just need to parse 5e's natural language (good luck with that) for the things it changed /back/.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7750385, member: 996"] That begs the question, does Mr. Edwards even know what a 'definition' /is/, because he seems wholly unable to construct one, or at least work himself up to the point he's willing to spit one out... OK, waitaminit: So, basically, core & universal systems, regardless of design philosophy, balance, functionality, or level of complexity? ...oh, here's a real gem... So, isn't Incoherence like hypocrisy is for a post-modern critic: the only sin left that can be decried? Is it a coincidence that the chief examples of incoherence were representatives of the two most-dominant RPGs of 90s? D&D and it's challenger at the time, Storyteller? While, technically, I do have to agree that AD&D and Vampire were both incoherent, I do so only in the natural-language sense. In the same sense, so is Mr. Edwards. Yes, I've seen the sort of 'reverse simulation' I'm talking about, going, prettymuch, all the way back (to 1980, I suppose). Seeing it so vigorously put forth as the one true way had to wait for the edition war, though. Yes, there are many parallels to be found, in other editions, to specific things people actually complained about in 4e. When someone expresses dissatisfaction with a new version of an old product, and cites things that haven't /really/ changed as 'differences' to justify that dissatisfaction, and insists on changing things back across the board, rather than amending the specific items being complained about, chances are, there's something else that /has/ changed that is at the root of the problem. But, for whatever reason, they don't feel comfortable bringing it up. Instead, to get back what is actually desired, we must go through this charade of implausible complaints, nostalgia, factual misstatements back-peddled to meaningless subjective claims, recriminations, accusations, name-calling, etc... all to get the clock rolled back and restore the actual changes, actually at issue, but which are, for whatever reason, unspeakable. That charade is over, D&D has been restored. You can probably work out for yourself what changed, and changed back, and thus what it was really all about, for yourself, without poking anyone on the internet anymore. You've obviously got 4e down, you just need to parse 5e's natural language (good luck with that) for the things it changed /back/. [/QUOTE]

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