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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7750670" data-attributes="member: 996">It's not exactly the same stuff - it's the same concept, but with very different levels of availability & effectiveness - complaints may have been phrased around the conceptual aspects, but they were not about them.And, really, it was no different before 5e.  4e was criticized for things that 1e (dissociated mechanics!) and/or 3.5 (grid dependence!) had always done, too. There are very substantive differences between 4e & real D&D.  Class balance, dependability of encounter design guidelines, impact of magic items, genre fidelity, rewards for system mastery, difficulty of DMing, impact of pacing, handling of challenges other than combat, impact of progression, etc......they're just not things that are often complained of, directly.</blockquote>