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<blockquote data-quote="Jay Verkuilen" data-source="post: 7751817" data-attributes="member: 6873517">Exactly, as opposed to the themes that WotC built into the design, such as the genre emulation that you noted was a lot of 4E's design choices. From all this discussion I wonder If much of my issue really came down to the fact that things like the CB and the general intricacies of the rules such as the long list of powers for every class, the long list of feats, etc., just made me feel a lot of pressure to stay in the lines and/or increase the burden of coloring outside the lines. In retrospect I think that you're right---I could have just dumped whole classes or whatever, but that just didn't feel like a live option to me. I'm pretty sure I would have had a player revolt on my hands if I did. A DM of mine at the time put it this way: &quot;4E magic items were both utterly boring and totally necessary.&quot; (This was pre-Inherent Bonuses, but to make those work you really needed to get rid of essentially all items.) The &quot;milestone&quot; daily item use limit was... ugh. I know this is so last week, but that was one of the worst examples of a gamist/dissociated/whatever you want to call it I've literally ever seen. I totally get why they did it from a game balance perspective, but it just felt wrong. It's one reason I dislike both concentration and attunement as they are implemented in 5E. They &quot;work&quot; mechanically but fail to reinforce a theme. Instead they're blatantly about game balance. Clearly I have a delicate tolerance for such things....</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jay Verkuilen, post: 7751817, member: 6873517"] Exactly, as opposed to the themes that WotC built into the design, such as the genre emulation that you noted was a lot of 4E's design choices. From all this discussion I wonder If much of my issue really came down to the fact that things like the CB and the general intricacies of the rules such as the long list of powers for every class, the long list of feats, etc., just made me feel a lot of pressure to stay in the lines and/or increase the burden of coloring outside the lines. In retrospect I think that you're right---I could have just dumped whole classes or whatever, but that just didn't feel like a live option to me. I'm pretty sure I would have had a player revolt on my hands if I did. A DM of mine at the time put it this way: "4E magic items were both utterly boring and totally necessary." (This was pre-Inherent Bonuses, but to make those work you really needed to get rid of essentially all items.) The "milestone" daily item use limit was... ugh. I know this is so last week, but that was one of the worst examples of a gamist/dissociated/whatever you want to call it I've literally ever seen. I [I]totally [/I]get why they did it from a game balance perspective, but it just felt wrong. It's one reason I dislike both concentration and attunement as they are implemented in 5E. They "work" mechanically but fail to reinforce a theme. Instead they're blatantly about game balance. Clearly I have a delicate tolerance for such things.... [/QUOTE]

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