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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 3200960" data-attributes="member: 19675">Lesson #300 of posting in an online thread:&nbsp; don't try to post a chain of logic while sleep deprived.&nbsp; You will make at least 1 stupid error. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I broke that rule.If Hyp is correct (and as I agreed) that unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks, the subset (US) has a quality that the set (UA) does not- the quality of being a weapon.&nbsp; This error is trivial, since step 3 builds upon my erroneous claim that UAs were weapons to claim that USs were weapons.&nbsp; Since they are listed as weapons, 2 &amp; 3 collapse into one statement- US are weapons as listed in the equipment guide.This position introduces its own problems.Grapple is a special unarmed attack maneuver,&nbsp; the Feat-improved version of which requires the Feat Improved Unarmed Strike.&nbsp; The implication: you cannot gain the benefits of the Imp. Grapple feat with a mere unarmed attack; instead the increased training reflected in an unarmed strike must be used to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple (if the dichotomy between unarmed attacks and unarmed strikes is indeed non-trivial).If, then, you must use unarmed strike to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple, and a monk can only unarmed strike while in FoB, then a Monk can ONLY gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple while using FoB.That in turn raises the question of when other PCs who have IUC and Imp. Grapple can gain the benefit of the latter feat since they do not have FoB.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 3200960, member: 19675"] Lesson #300 of posting in an online thread: don't try to post a chain of logic while sleep deprived. You will make at least 1 stupid error. :) I broke that rule. If Hyp is correct (and as I agreed) that unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks, the subset (US) has a quality that the set (UA) does not- the quality of being a weapon. This error is trivial, since step 3 builds upon my erroneous claim that UAs were weapons to claim that USs were weapons. Since they are listed as weapons, 2 & 3 collapse into one statement- US are weapons as listed in the equipment guide. This position introduces its own problems. Grapple is a special unarmed attack maneuver, the Feat-improved version of which requires the Feat Improved Unarmed Strike. The implication: you cannot gain the benefits of the Imp. Grapple feat with a mere unarmed attack; instead the increased training reflected in an unarmed strike must be used to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple (if the dichotomy between unarmed attacks and unarmed strikes is indeed non-trivial). If, then, you must use unarmed strike to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple, and a monk can only unarmed strike while in FoB, then a Monk can ONLY gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple while using FoB. That in turn raises the question of when other PCs who have IUC and Imp. Grapple can gain the benefit of the latter feat since they do not have FoB. [/QUOTE]

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