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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 5976773" data-attributes="member: 9037">There is a huge difference depending on what kind of undead you are dealing with deal with the ones that can paralyze and without a cleric you could be just hosed.Most modules when using undead add in quite a few based on the cleric being able to turn some of them. The encounter was not designed to be handles solely by bashing on them.I don't know what to say I don't have any issue making challenging encounters and the games I play the wizard does not make everyone his lackey. So I don't really know what to say except that when we played 4E no one wanted to play a wizard because we felt it had become the boring class. Which is how most of us felt about the 3E fighter.I never ever heard this until near the end of 3E it suddenly became a major topic of conversation along with the 15 minute day issue. A lot of times I read well the wizard can do this and this which they can on paper but I have never actually seen it in play that way at the table. In actual game play things don't go as smoothly with random dice rolls and other people involved. Take the issue with teleport we very rarely use it in game because part of the game fun to us is exploring and the trip is as much fun. Teleport is used for emergencies and when the DM says you need to be here there now. So part of me wonders if the players are using teleport to get around encounters maybe this is not a rule issue but a table issue and the DM is not providing interesting things to make the journey itself fun. Then there is the issue of saying that the rest of the characters don't have any narrative control yes on paper that is also true but in game play I have never seen this. We all talk and decide the best course of action and if that means it is the wizard casting a spell to make it happen then we are okay with that. We don't spend a lot of time worrying that this PC is more powerful or in this combat that PC did more damage. I think some of these issues are more intellectual exercise and topics to debate. I understand some people don't like vancian magic and that is fine but not liking something does not mean it is broken and that is where I think the major issues come in on making a game that appeals to a large group of people. Which is why I think giving options is the best way instead of a hard fast rule .like 4E did. Vanican magic an issue have options that can help the DM run a game without it hate the idea of 24 hour resets then give the DM options on changing it to something more suitable for their game.Of course if this happens you have to wonder what will we find to talk about.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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