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Flying Races: Limiting Flight
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<blockquote data-quote="Erechel" data-source="post: 7309582" data-attributes="member: 6784868"><p>And as I've said so before, you can solve it quickly: horror movie. And they know it. Also, it isn't going to be better at level five, when a wizard could pass only one creature at a time, possibly at best two without needing to rest, and spending their most powerful spells.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Name one. One gate that could be bypassed only by having one creature flying that cannot be solved by a familiar.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just how many gates do you place that require fly to be passed by? As you put it, it seems like the only one. Also, Fly is a Concentration spell that gives one creature the ability to fly, not the whole party. And its level three, so the same problem persists at level 5. You could theoretically bypass it with a classical party of four (wizard, rogue, cleric, fighter) at about level 11. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True. It is a rather different approach to a problem. You seem to be using the "only one true key" approach to gating. I've seen way too many times this logic fail, and adventures become stagnant because there is only one possible answer. If no one can learn the fly spell (asume a party of fighters, paladins, rogues and clerics, in one of the many configurations that don't rely on flying: even a wizard could theoretically never find or being interested in learn the Fly spell, because other options are available) the gate will never open. Ever. Because the Fly spell is the only answer to open all the doors of the world. And then, you need them to solve it by other means different of flying, such as giving them a magical item that allows them to cross the bridge. A magical item they could feasibly obtain at any given level.</p><p></p><p>It feels more like a level 5 tax than a feature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you haven't explained anything from experience. I'll be trilled to read your experience with flying characters auto-solving entire adventures</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, you were. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So the players could clearly see the rails, because there is only one solution. So much for player agency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The rest of the party gaining the ability of flying is one hell specific key to attain, and it is solved, as I've said prior, much later than level 5. If an aaracockra can't fly because there is a lot of wind, it will have to:</p><p></p><p>a) Solve the problem in any other way or</p><p>b) Find a way to control the winds and then fly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've never said so. The problem still needs to be solved somehow. That's a clever challenge: one that needs to be solved creatively. You are the one posting the gates with one and only solution, not me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You know that it is an arbitrary decision point, don't you? It is just a mater of taste. I natural that people pick a race because of their abilities, and a variant human, EG, is much more powerful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em>You </em>said that NPCs and PCs "RAW" play by different rules, not me. I've only pointed out that you are wrong, and quoted why. It was <em>your point</em> falling apart, not mine. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Flying is just one trait, with self contained limits. Unlimited shapeshifting is... unlimited. And includes flying, because you can morph wings. Half dragons are not an issue, because they aren't really that powerful besides the breath weapon, that does a dire damage, and is no PC race. Using a dragonborn (a PC race right in the PHB) seems sensible enough for the concept of the character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The gate would be the same: cross the chasm at level 5th. You would also need other keys also, such as dealing with the wind first, and then flying to the destination. Fly would still be a key to the conflict, if you ever enlight me with a problem solved by one creature flying that cannot be accomplished by a familiar.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do. And so do you. I'm sorry for you if they are such a big deal in your games. But you suggested a massive nerf if someone insists on playing one such character. I suggest using the rules as they currently are.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I read the reasons, and I find them petty and easily solved. You said "unrestricted flying", and I've said that it isn't unrestricted, that there are a lot of baked in restrictions. There are only corner cases where this could be a real problem: only if you <em>need </em> the players to have a fly spell at a very specific level, because you can't "gate" them if they don't, even when you didn't give any problem that wouldn't still be a problem past level 5, or that cannot be solved by a familiar.</p><p></p><p>And you are in your right to ban races, if you want. I usually ban drows because I find them stupid and racist. But then you said you allow them by nerfing them to near uselessness, because... you feel pity? You bring the necessity to ban races or nerfing them because you can't deal with a flying creature prior to level 5th.</p><p></p><p>As Angry says "you can play your game in any wrong way you want". I assume that you read its about gating and if you don't, i highly recommend you to read it. It is harder to make effective gates in TTRPGs, and much more making them elegant and not as arbitrary.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Erechel, post: 7309582, member: 6784868"] And as I've said so before, you can solve it quickly: horror movie. And they know it. Also, it isn't going to be better at level five, when a wizard could pass only one creature at a time, possibly at best two without needing to rest, and spending their most powerful spells. Name one. One gate that could be bypassed only by having one creature flying that cannot be solved by a familiar. Just how many gates do you place that require fly to be passed by? As you put it, it seems like the only one. Also, Fly is a Concentration spell that gives one creature the ability to fly, not the whole party. And its level three, so the same problem persists at level 5. You could theoretically bypass it with a classical party of four (wizard, rogue, cleric, fighter) at about level 11. True. It is a rather different approach to a problem. You seem to be using the "only one true key" approach to gating. I've seen way too many times this logic fail, and adventures become stagnant because there is only one possible answer. If no one can learn the fly spell (asume a party of fighters, paladins, rogues and clerics, in one of the many configurations that don't rely on flying: even a wizard could theoretically never find or being interested in learn the Fly spell, because other options are available) the gate will never open. Ever. Because the Fly spell is the only answer to open all the doors of the world. And then, you need them to solve it by other means different of flying, such as giving them a magical item that allows them to cross the bridge. A magical item they could feasibly obtain at any given level. It feels more like a level 5 tax than a feature. Again, you haven't explained anything from experience. I'll be trilled to read your experience with flying characters auto-solving entire adventures Yes, you were. So the players could clearly see the rails, because there is only one solution. So much for player agency. The rest of the party gaining the ability of flying is one hell specific key to attain, and it is solved, as I've said prior, much later than level 5. If an aaracockra can't fly because there is a lot of wind, it will have to: a) Solve the problem in any other way or b) Find a way to control the winds and then fly. I've never said so. The problem still needs to be solved somehow. That's a clever challenge: one that needs to be solved creatively. You are the one posting the gates with one and only solution, not me. You know that it is an arbitrary decision point, don't you? It is just a mater of taste. I natural that people pick a race because of their abilities, and a variant human, EG, is much more powerful. [I]You [/I]said that NPCs and PCs "RAW" play by different rules, not me. I've only pointed out that you are wrong, and quoted why. It was [I]your point[/I] falling apart, not mine. Flying is just one trait, with self contained limits. Unlimited shapeshifting is... unlimited. And includes flying, because you can morph wings. Half dragons are not an issue, because they aren't really that powerful besides the breath weapon, that does a dire damage, and is no PC race. Using a dragonborn (a PC race right in the PHB) seems sensible enough for the concept of the character. The gate would be the same: cross the chasm at level 5th. You would also need other keys also, such as dealing with the wind first, and then flying to the destination. Fly would still be a key to the conflict, if you ever enlight me with a problem solved by one creature flying that cannot be accomplished by a familiar. I do. And so do you. I'm sorry for you if they are such a big deal in your games. But you suggested a massive nerf if someone insists on playing one such character. I suggest using the rules as they currently are. I read the reasons, and I find them petty and easily solved. You said "unrestricted flying", and I've said that it isn't unrestricted, that there are a lot of baked in restrictions. There are only corner cases where this could be a real problem: only if you [I]need [/I] the players to have a fly spell at a very specific level, because you can't "gate" them if they don't, even when you didn't give any problem that wouldn't still be a problem past level 5, or that cannot be solved by a familiar. And you are in your right to ban races, if you want. I usually ban drows because I find them stupid and racist. But then you said you allow them by nerfing them to near uselessness, because... you feel pity? You bring the necessity to ban races or nerfing them because you can't deal with a flying creature prior to level 5th. As Angry says "you can play your game in any wrong way you want". I assume that you read its about gating and if you don't, i highly recommend you to read it. It is harder to make effective gates in TTRPGs, and much more making them elegant and not as arbitrary. [/QUOTE]
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