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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Reynard" data-source="post: 5263195" data-attributes="member: 467">Last night I was sitting down and "running the numbers" on the size and sort of encounters might be expected to gain a level for a party in Pathfinder (mostly to get an idea of general guidelines for creating a PFRPG mega-dungeon). I presupposed the slow advancement track, a five member party (or 4 plus 2 henchmen) and a distribution of 10% APL-1, 30% APL+0, 30% APL+1, 20% APL+2 and 10% APL+3 encounters -- which comes out to be just about 32 encounters per level. (about 6/12/8/4/2 of the previous catergories, for anyone who cares). This was all interesting and kind of informative, but when i got to treasure distribution it really threw me for a loop because the numbers are so LOW. It takes 15000 XP for a party of five to go from 1st to 2nd level on the slow advancement track, during which time the total treasure value is about 8500 GP (I don't have the exact number because my notebook is at home).  Because gold=XP in prior editions, the number would be much higher (close to the XP required, if not more) in thos editions.This got me to thinking about motivations and play, and how XP (and for what it is awarded) informs play.Now, this is important: I am bringing this up in the context of dungeon exploration based play, with an emphasis on XP rewards for that activity. "Story awards" and ad hoc levelling, though interesting discussions on their own, aren't really relevent.Under the treasure=XP model, the most important thing is getting out with the gold. this informs play. Since combat is dangerous and offers relatively small rewards, it is best avoided. This includes not only bypassing "guardian" monsters but also not dallying because that draws rolls on the wandering monster table. Moreover, there's no reward for overcoming a trap. They are best avoided altogther. The tendency to search everything for hidden stashes is also based on the treasure = XP paradigm, because missed treasure is missed opportunity to get better. All this results in characters, if they survive, being fabulously wealthy. of course, rich characters don't need to go delving for more riches, so the game supposes methods by which to seperate these fools and their money: training costs, upkeep, very expensive hired casters and so on.In 3.x and onward, where treasure has no impact on XP (and totally leaving out wealth as a component of PC balance -- that's a different can of worms), XP comes from overcoming challenges. Suddenly the definition of "overcoming" becomes extremely important. Is "completely avoiding" the same as "overcoming". Do PCs get XP for traps they don't set off and monsters they don't fight? If not, the XP motivator points characters toward combat and other dangerous activities, and only raw greed gets the characters flipping desks and cutting open couches.So, I guess I am asking two things: can you do a classic "plotless" dungeon crawl in 3.x+ (not mechanically -- that's another issue), and what overall effect does moving XP away from treasure toward overcoming challenges have? As an aside, what qualifies as "overcoming challenges" to you?</blockquote>

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