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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Norfleet" data-source="post: 1127321" data-attributes="member: 11581">Yes, but when an assassin attacks a sleeping warrior with a death attack, that's a Fort save. A fort save requires absolutely no reaction from the person attempting the save: A character can resist poison, disease, and trauma just as well, if not better, while asleep, as he can while awake and able to move about. Furthermore, the warrior is ASLEEP, which means the assassin can perform a CDG+Sneak Attack+Death Attack: The hapless, unfortunate warrior must make a save vs. the Death Attack, then a save vs. the massively-sneakattack-enhanced CDG should he survive the death attack. He's toast, period. One of those ubermunch megafortitude characters would be hard-pressed to make a DC40+ CDG fort save. But anyway, characters make or fail fort saves on account of being tough. It requires no activity to attempt.A reflex save, on the other hand, requires that the character be able to react to something, and that the reaction must be meaningful and able to somehow reduce or eliminate the effect that is being saved against. A pit trap may have a reflex save to avoid falling in, but a rogue who is tied up, knocked out, and dropped onto the pit trap can't possibly avoid this, even with all of his trapsense, dexterity, and general roguely reflexes: He can't react or otherwise do anything about it.The interesting incongruity is that a character can be deprived of a dexterity bonus against a physical attack, yet still retain it against, say, a fireball under those same conditions. The rules really don't say very much about this, although I'd certainly deny the option of adding dexterity bonusses to a reflex save under conditions which would also deny dexterity to AC.The other wiggy thing about reflex saves is that a reflex save is very frequently something which seems like it would require some sort of ACTION to attempt, yet there appears to be no cost or side effect associated with reasonable courses of action: A character who makes a reflex save vs. a fireball, for instance, would likely hit the deck, yet is not required to expend any action to get up afterwards.The other interesting thing is that a reflex save is a REFLEX save, and by nature, would seem to be primarily involuntary, yet characters are able to suppress a reflex save without any knowledge of the need to do so.In short, reflex saves are the odd-man-out when it comes to saving throws. While Fort and Will saves require no concious effort or action on the part of the person making the save, a Reflex save definitely requires that the person attempting it *DO* something. If that person can't do that something, for whatever reason, then perhaps he should not be allowed to make a reflex save.</blockquote>

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