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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 2270797" data-attributes="member: 478">Do you honestly think that divine magic is stronger than psionics?Do you also think that divine magic is stronger than arcane magic?There is very little in the summon monster list, which has good spells, tho.Yep, the greater earth elemental isn't much weaker. It doesn't have the additional flexibility with the package stuff, but then again, you can summon other monsters, of course. The better AC probably balances out with the lower hit points. A low AC is not good, when even the 3rd and 4th attacks hit regularily then.At that high levels, the summoned stuff is mostly ignored, anyways.That's also true for the constructs, of course. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Yeah, it's not irrelevant for the psion, of course. It's just irrelevant to comparing the spells and powers.I'm well aware of the disadvantage with the discipline lists, but I would consider that as a seperate (and pretty big) disadvantage and not mix it in with this comparison.Sorcerers cannot quicken.Wizards need to prepare that as an 8th level spell.Psions can do it, whenever they need it.For wizards: No, they are not. Metamagic is quite commonly bashed for being almost useless for them.For sorcerers: Metamagic is good, but it costs them feats, of which they do not have many. It does not really make their spells much more effective, it just helps them keep their lower level spells useful. With metamagic the higher level slots get burned up even quicker, tho.Psions gain most of the advantages, sorcerers gain through metamagic, for free (no feat cost, that is), anyways. And they can use metapsionics as well, all they need in addition is to spend one of their bonus feats on Psionic Meditation. Sure, the interaction with augmentation and metapsionic cost makes them a little less effective than their magical counterparts, but they do cost less to use, too.So? Does everyone in your games have this spell running?Besides, Suggestion is unaffected by that spell.Antimagic Field also negates all magic and psionics, so I guess they are just glorified commoners then. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Seriously, countermeasures are good, but how often one encounters them is much more important!Ok, the shadow spells are good. They have their limits, and the lowest versions are not really great, but all in all they are good spells for sure. At least the conjuration one. The evocation one is pretty bad, actually.There are plenty creatures with permanent True Seeing and rather few with Mind Blank. Only arcanists, psions and very few clerics have that.No, I don't think you would encounter Mind Blank more often than True Seeing, unless you play into epic levels, maybe.Yeah, that's what I meant. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Hey, I agree, that having a save-or-die spell succeed is better, but that simply doesn't happen very often at higher levels. And wasting actions isn't exactly good at higher levels.Resources *and* actions. If I manage to do that, the BBEG is already toast! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Who's Bull? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Well, yes, but they are still pretty limited and you waste a higher level slot for a lower level effect.The versatility is great for a sorcerer, because they have so little spells known, but they are not nearly as effective as the real spells.Anyways, I was speaking of high level spells/powers not low level spells/powers.The shadow spells give you more low level spells, but not more high level ones.Roughly. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />No? So psions in actual gameplay never augment lower level powers then?Psions in actual gameplay do not have (for example) at 10th level a total of four true 5th level powers, where the sorcerer has only one? And at 11th level then an additional 6th level power for the sorcerer's second 5th level spell? And in addition to that a couple of lower level powers, which can be augmented to have the effect of a spell of that level (note: I'm only speaking of powers, which can be augmented to become a higher version of the same spell/power, like Astral Construct, for example)?-6 levels is not that bad, once you have a certain level (mid to high). Schism and Quicken are both high level abilities, of course. Makes no sense to use them at 8th or 10th level, so much for sure.Right, that's about the same. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />And here I must really ask... do you think, that this is a balancing factor?Would you allow a sorcerer to simply cast two spells a round then?That's also quicker output and quicker burnout!Not specifically, it's like using Heighten Spell, you also pay for it by using a higher level slot, but you do not get an additional effect then. Psionics give the additional effect *and* the DC.How do you come to that conclusion? Simplistic view?Maybe you did not get to the base of what I'm saying.Just to make sure: I do not say, that a psion should always blow out PP as there was no tomorrow! I just say, that the psion *can* do so, if the situation requires it.Listing all the possible ways to use the PP over a day would require waaay too much time and space.*puzzled look*What psions are you talking about?Maybe you just didn't notice them? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Maybe your campaign style does match the few, that make psions balanced with arcanists?Nah, I just said, that arcane spells have the edge at the no-save category.However, the ability to manifest a multiple of high level effects is much stronger IMHO.Not damage... effect! They generate more effect in an average day (as explained in a post above).Damage is just one form of effect.Now you make a big jump here.The spells from those schools favor the arcanists over the psions with their powers. Yes.But that is only, if you look at the complete lists. Those never come into play effectively.The point of comparison is the sorcerer, and with the extremely limited spell selection the sorcerer cannot make decent use of that advantage!The wizard can, sure, but the wizard has no spontaneous casting ability.You have totally not understood what I am saying, if that is the conclusion you draw.I think my "simplistic view" is just too complex for people to understand... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />ByeThanee</blockquote>

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