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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2321696" data-attributes="member: 5777">Well, I had this nice post almost done, and then the power went out. Very annoying ;/ I'll try to redo it but if it comes off a bit brief that would be the reason why.I dont have a ton of time, I'll go over the highlights across a few posts.Hopefully no one will mind me posting a few in a row <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />(gah, this post turned out way too long <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> )I would like to see you do a similar analysis of arcane and of divine in two seperate runs. If you were to do them in the same way you did this one then your conclusions on each that they are unbalanced as compared to each of the others. Even if one could prove that most of the time manifestors are stronger/better/more potent than arcane casters they are still below the power level of the divine casters. I do find it interesting that being below the power level of one or more of the core guys is written off as unimportant while at the same time anything that they might be good at is blown way out of proportion.Now, going along with this, I personally hate having to always play to the lowest common denomenator. It is neither necissary nor required. There are other ways around certain problems after all, many systems do this. But, this is neither here nor there.Coming at this from another way, if we go by what is easiest to min/max and to what degree we could look to the character optimization boards. The number of builds for caster types and noncaster types are far above and beyond the numbers for psionic builds. Generally there are a few things that can be worked hard to get obscene in the psionics system, but there are far, far more for the other caster types. So, by this yard stick, psioncs would be in need of some beefing up, not nerfing (or, the other caster types would need some nerfing, to be brought down to the appropriate level).I was following along until the last line there. We dont have to pretend that psionics is just another spellcasting system because it 'is' just another spellcasting system. It works in the same way, it does the samethings. Really, it has spell (power) levels, it is effected by SR, it deals with limitations of duration in the same fashion, dispel magic works, it doesnt function in an antimagic field, and a number of other things. Transparency across the board. Maybe in 2nd edition you could've made a case, but in 3rd? Not a chance.Interesting. Are all of these rated equally? How do you rate these by degrees that they go to. After all, taking it to an extreme, if one can only choose between 3 spells from each level, only gets one of these three, can only cast it once per day, but they all have durations of 24 hours and are very impressive. This could easily be balanced by the system at large but going by the above it would be completely impossible to tell.Maybe if you had a rating system from 1 to 5 or so. of course, at that point there is a problem of which value to pick. The conclusions drawn would likewise be biased. However, it would at least give a slightly better starting place than this.It sounds like you are saying that the wizard and sorcerer suck. But, as I mentioned above, there are just so many variables that are left out that it is impossible to tell.In other words, one could draw any number of different interpretations from this and they would all be equally valid.Even just by going directly with what I think you are trying to say basically you put the sorc way above the wizard in power level and possibly even above the divine caster although it is fuzzy.Spells per level? The sorc should get this one as well if the psion gets it. Especially considering that the sorc is the master of metamagics, far and above the psion.yet another thing saying that the sorc is actually way ahead in this game <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Actually, I dont feel this is true. You toss away the wizards best advantage as a trifle (given any situation and time to prepare he will have an answer, massive selection) and give beanies to the psions side without giving the same beanie to the sorc when he deserves it. To my counting that puts the sorc and psion on decently even ground and the wizard only slightly behind.Going even further, if we look at a specialist wizard instead (psions are specialists, so comparing to a specialist wizard certainly shouldnt be out of line) the wizard has nearly as many spells to cast in a day as the sorc, and way above the psion. Another point of contention.Of course, if we add up the pp value of each spell the casters have they are pretty far ahead of the psion. This means that the psion has more flexibility but less staying power. This is a tradeoff that many like to sweep under the rug.Many lower level spells and powers retain their usefulness later on. The casters are mostly free to act on these, they dont really count much against their overall power. Each and every power manifested cuts into the 'advantage' that others always point to. In addition, going full out like that isnt all that much more effective than what the other casters can do generally, then the psions have to be out of the game for longer.So, tradeoffs. The potential to do more highers, but doing no lowers. Or, lots of lowers but no real highers. Overall, much less staying power in trade for the versitility.Remember that ranking system I said above? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />This is true, it is another aspect of what I said above. Although, there is also the point of free augmentation for some spells that powers dont get.There are also a very large number of spells vs the number of psionic powers, although this is a difficult point to call 'balancing'. Although, it does mean that there are a large number of unique effects that the psions simply cannot do.More of these items without scales. But, I just so happened to have made one <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />(0's count as half, specialist in parenthesis, psion in brackets, sorc last)1st 2.5 (3) [2] {5.5}2nd 4 (5) [6] {7}3rd 7 (11) [11] {8}4th 11 (15) [17] {18}5th 16 (25) [25] {21}6th 24 (32) [35] {39}7th 32 (48) [46] {47}8th 44 (60) [58] {73}9th 56 (81) [72] {85}10th 72 (97) [88] {119}11th 88 (124) [106] {135}12th 108 (144) [126] {179}13th 128 (177) [147] {199}14th 152 (201) [170] {249}15th 176 (240) [195] {273}16th 204 (268) [221] {331}17th 232 (313) [250] {359}18th 264 (345) [280] {425}19th 294 (375) [311] {457}20th 326 (407) [343] {491}now, I dont know how to make one of those nifty table things. If anyone can let me know I'll try it.Now, the generalist mage is always on the bottom, but generally not by much.The bonus points run the gambit varying by level and ability modifier for which class gets the most. Overall, the generalist wizard is on the bottom, then the psion, then the specialist wizard, then the sorc on the top.As the psion has to spend first level slots to get the equivalents of the 0th level spells I think this is definately a consideration, especially early on. The psion must also spend a full pp for them instead of the 1/2 as they were rated above.I have no clue at all why the sorc has delayed progression. Going by the numbers I just gave it looks like giving the sorc a 1 instead of a dash at the appropriate odd levels would make the progression in pp equivalncies work out perfectly across the board. Sounds like a sorc problem, not a psion problem.The first is a given. The only negative comparison this could be taken as is vs the sorc. Again, sorc problem, not a psion problem. Same with the sorc being cha based which could be considered to be a detriment. Sorc problem, not a psion problem. Unless of course you are taking away bonus feats from the wizard and domains from the cleric.The second is spending feats for some special purpose. yes, there are some psionic feats for which there is no magic equivalent, the same is true for the reverse. Given the number of suppliments out we can get a huge ratio of feats that the arcane can use that the psions cant. Which would mean that your point actually goes for saying the psion is weaker than the others.Also, for the last bit, talented only works with powers of level 3 and less (that would be: 1st, 2nd and 3rd as there are no 0th level powers) and requires expending focus. I notice from the rest of your analysis you ignore this factor. It is a 'huge' factor, so huge that ignoring it is enough to throw our your entire analysis without even bothering to read the rest. Focus is a huge balancing factor.I'll go over this more later, but I'll give a brief example. Say your caster wants to have a spell focused, spell penetrating, and empowered spell. The psion, pre-epic, can 'never' do this. Even after spending a bunch of feats the best that he can do is two foci at once, and if he wants to do that more than once per combat it takes rounds of extra time (even with spending yet another feat to reduce the time it takes to regain focus).But still, yes, the psion can use overchannel and sometimes ignore the damage by expending focus, and then could spend even more pp out of their limited supply to make some power a little more impressive. That is one of their perks. If you would like me to list out a few dozen feats that the psion cant use that the other casters can I will.Arcane spell failure is stupid. But even failing that, divine casters are not effected. Failing that not all arcane casters are effected all of the time. Failing that, not all spells have somatic components. Even failing all of that even a wizard can cast spells with somatic components in armor if he chooses his equipment properly.Definately a minor balancing point, and one that shouldnt even be there in the first place in my opinion.The psion isnt exactly proficient in armor anyway, so still suffers from skill check penalties, which is very prohibiting.Material components almost never come into play. Most are ignored completely with a spell pouch (incredibly cheap, having multiple doesnt even effect your total wealth) and even with the expensive ones I would much rather have a focus/component instead of having to pay exp. True, the psions dont have V, S, or M, they have a completely different set of limitations. Like a ringing in peoples ears or being covered in slime. So, the part about, 'no such limitations' is effectively false, nice try though.Wizards have a huge selection of spells available as compared with the psion. Wizards need a book to look over, from which they can fill up slots anytime during the day, and the psion has a much more limited selection.In some ways yes, in other ways no. Unfortunately, the game works with whole numbers so feats that would be '+0.1' must be rounded up to 1. I am hopeing for fixes sometime in the future <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Augmentation is a very nice addition. I feel it adds a lot of flavor to the class.But yes, the casters get free scaling in many spells that the psion must pay for directly.However, I disagree with the 'greater flexibility' comment. It definately adds a lot, but there are still so many things in magic that work over such a wide area of effect along with the always scaling that it simply means that in specific situations certain powers have a greater flexibility.Lets look at this in some steps.First of all, about the psionic dominate, it is telepath only and it starts off weaker than the spell version. Astral construct and summon monster have very different options, you can get lots of things from summoning that you cant dream of with the construct, and you can get more guys at once, and astral construct is shaper only.Talking about 'degrees of freedom' though there are many good powers only on certain discipline lists. If you want to even get a handfull of them there go all of those vaunted feats, putting the psion farther behind the wizard.Secondly, you are again ignoring the benefit of the spellbook, along with ignoring the wizards powerful ability to leave slots open to get the perfect spell later.We are apparently not playing the same game, casters can freely choose a number all the way down to the minimum needed to cast the spell <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />yep, some powers do scale. Not all do however. There are several powers whos augmentation is so horrible as to make them effectively worthless also (disentegrate anyone?), this cuts into other areas of ability.Eh, I feel that the linear progression is fine for the difference in power levels. Higher multipliers are definately out of the question.But then, it isnt, so you dont have to worry about this.If you want to judge by dice of damage then each new level is only slightly above the last. If you want to judge by other requirements feel free to list them.Do you mean like sorcs and their scorching rays and magic missiles which blow the psions low level stuff out of the water on a cost to cost balance? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Again, sounds like the psion is behind..lolEach level of spell/power is definately not necissarily double the power of the last. In fact, I would say it is very, very far from it. Definately an increase, but quadratic? No way. Linear is as good an approximation as anything else that doesnt go up too fast.Still though, spending more ability at once should do slightly more effective things. Strangely enough, that is exactly what happens.Cool, so give it to them. They can already take it crossclassed anyway. Dont make up problems that dont even exist to begin with. Of course, I feel that every class should have spot and listen on their class lists. That doesnt mean that it happens though. Focus is a major drawback to being a psionic character. It limits pretty much everything that they can do in one way or another. Sure, the feats could be made equivalent, but it is nice for some extra flavor.My guess would be that it was also put in to help against some of the detractors saying psionics were too powerful. I guess it failed, at least in some cases.I dont even know where to start here. Apparently everyone has an unlimited number of feats, pp, and time. Must be nice, I've never played in a game like that however.If you want to be able to use your psionic feats more than once in a given battle (aside from spending a full round doing nothing else but trying to gain focus) you must spend another feat, you must max out concentration all of the time, you must spend time regaining focus.Limited uses per day is a horrible balancing mechanic (see the spontaneous metamagic feats and other such problems). I dont know what you mean by, 'limited uses per round', nor 'stacking'.the concept works pretty well in practice, although it has some issues. Such as the feat that makes it a move action should be dropped into concentration checks. Too many feats are required to make useing focus something that any psion can do. Major balancing point, too major in fact.Given what you have said above I think you should trust in them much more than you trust in your analysis.Why? Why not just remove the requirement from augment summoning?So are you saying that the psions are getting the shaft or that they are even?Empower power needs expenditure of focus (remember focus?) and in order to make it useful the psion has to dump a lot more pp into a power than the spellcaster does for a spell.Of course, the caster has the metamagic rods and can dump out a few empowered ones for pretty cheap (9k for a lesser rod, turn those 10d6 fireballs into 15d6, still only a third level spell).Direct damage psionic powers do tend to still be useful later on, moreso than the spells, but the psion pays for it. Also, it isnt because of the damage (which is compareable), it is only because the psion can change elements. Without that they would be just as bad at it as the other casters.Psions are better blasters, nothing wrong with that, at all. (and by 'better' I mean 'actually viable')Every psion will get it? Wow, cutting into those bonus feats even further. Along with maybe provoking aoos, needing to make the check, and having to wait until level 5 to get it.Still though, are you saying that they are fairly even or that one of them is ahead of the other?They wanted a different effect ::shrugs::. Personally, I would much rather have it be +2 without focus. As is this is a much, much weaker version for psionics than casters, even with the doubling.Since the caster version is always on you dont have to worry about whether or not the creature has SR, you always get it. For the psion they have to worry and guess, if they go with the extra then they cant do something else. Plus, it requires the psion to get psychic meditation and most likely also psicrystal and psicrystal containment just so that they can actually get use out of their feats.I went over this above. Basically it is a nice combo that takes a lot of resources to pull off and has some restrictions in order to be better at what the psion does.However, there are so many different feats that the psion cant use that the caster can that the last arguement is completely meaningless.(actually, practiced spellcaster is similar in some ways..psionics dont have an equivalent that I have seen, although one could port it directly through transperency, but psions get less out of the feat than casters)Please, improved toughness is 'way' better than this feat. In addition, it can be argued that 'dodge' is a better feat than improved toughness (ignoring 1 out of every 20 attacks vs an opponent every combat), so that shows how low on the pecking order this feat is.The main benefit is that at early levels the psion can have more surviveability through the sacrifice, and that is it.Talk about a, 'almost always worthless but can come in handy in a pinch' feat. 'Huge' cost and very conditional. Anyway though, in conclusion I think your conclusion is fairly suspect. I think that if you did a similar analysis of the arcane magic and of divine magic they would all have the same final analysis. Each can do things the others cant, each has their own specialties, and each can be said to be unbalanced when important factors are brushed away.</blockquote>

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