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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2321744" data-attributes="member: 5777">Since I was counting only things that benefited the summoner for summoning it wasnt a mistake. But, I can see how you would misunderstand my comment.So, he spent a feat on 'augmented summoning'. That is one feat.The next feat was to turn turning attempts into faster summons (this is an incredibly powerful ability, as I said before I think this right here puts your guys above the power level of the constructs hands down).So, that is two feats. One of which is equivalent to a C ability for all of your summons and the other is incredibly powerful right off of the bat. Very powerful stuff here.Sounds like you are assuming that the psion spends 3 feats at least: Overchannel, talented, and boost construct.To use talented the psion must expend focus, so in order to do this more than once per combat he also needs psychic meditation and a whole pile of ranks in concentration.The psion gets a tougher guy with his feats (if he spends extra pp in addition) and your guy comes out extra fast (assuming you dump a turning attempt or two into it).Losing pp faster means the psion is out of the game faster, losing turning attempts doesnt really mean much to the cleric. Especially this cleric who apparently gets a ton of turning attempts from all over..lolOk+2 caster level means it is harder to dispel and lasts longer, for every summon you pop out, without further cost. If it is a 'minor benefit' then you apparently never played low level, never try to use summons outside of combat, never have people use dispels, and/or never try to use noncombatant summons (when the summon goes away spell effects do too, keeping him around longer means they last longer).Also, it gives you more chances to use summon monster each day.The cleric has a similar conversion to spell points as the sorc when domains are counted in. This means that the cleric can bring many, many more summons into play than the psion can. If the psion is useing overchannel often then this number jumps up greatly again.  I am not the one blowing smoke here, but a lot of other people are. Jumping back and forth and picking up on discussions with others and then making up strawmen.. but it happens all of the time when psionics come up. People are so unwilling to try anything and so ready to pick up on anything negative that it is nearly impossible to get anything in edge wise.But that is a distraction, lets go over this.Muscle is a +4 to strength menu B ability. One can trade in a menu C ability for 2 menu B abilities. Augmented summoning gives +4 str and +4 con all of the time to all summons. This sounds like the equivalent to a menu C ability to me. Easily twice as good as the menu B ability.Also, the boost construct only gives a menu C choice for constructs of level 7 and up, for anyone less it gives a lesser choice.If you disagree that augmented summoning isnt equivalent to a menu C choice feel free to point out why, I think my reasoning above works very well for the conversion you want to do.But then, I still see no point at all in trying to compare them purely in situations where the AC's were meant to excel, just like earlier when I made the example of cone of cold doing much less fire damage than fireball and therefor cone of cold was horribly underpowered. The comparison is more extreme, but along exactly the same lines.It allows the cleric to blow the psion out of the water for amount of uses of summon monster. He can have whatever of his incredibly large list already known and subsitute them out at will.This is 'huge' for the cleric. Your cleric started at about the same power level and you blasted the psion away so long ago there isnt even a competition anymore.Not appropriate to post something you are useing as a basis and that is not protected by any laws? I am confused.I will assume for now that it is 1 turn attempt to make it a standard action. Even if nothing else was done on any other level I think this right here would pass up the power level of the AC immediately.It is just an incredibly large advantage.I think this is your biggest problem right here.If you step up to a specialist in his zone of interest and he has given up resources to be better at it then a nonspecialist, half gimped character should lose 100% of the time.You have gone through pains to make your guy a specialist, so that gets rid of the nonspecialist part.Still though, with what you have described your guy is a powerhouse that the psion can only compete with in a narrow band. Given that, he had better still win, considering. I dont see how he would though except in very specific situations.If you do not think that, then there is a problem.Your guy starts off with only about half of the list to begin with. That is a pretty big hinderance. It really cuts into its versitility. Hence, your character starts off very, very bad at useing it but you are forcing it to be viable.You have done a good job of that, in fact over the course of short combats your guy should do better nearly 100% of the time because of a single feat you have, even if it was the only thing you used.It is 'a' tactic and it can be useful when used properly, but meat shield it does not do very well. It has a lot of versitility and a ton of options which the AC has no hope to ever get.Without any feats or prc's helping it out it tends to be a nitch type of spell.You have not shown this in any way, shape, or form.It is not obvious, in fact there is no reason to even assume it is true with what is given so far in this thread.Even if we could prove that in 100% of the situations AC is 'always' better and even 'always much better' it still would not prove that AC is overpowered.Again, the cleric has similar amounts of spells to the sorcerer, who is 'way' ahead of the psion in that area.Even after your prc and feats and everything else (since you apparently have given up 0 caster levels, and really nothing at all) if your summons came out to be stronger than the AC even most of the time I would think that the AC was underpowered, and greatly so.Your cleric starts off with a handicap and puts resources into making an option that is not very good as a meat shield and tries to do something that both he and the spell are not good at.Vs a specialist who starts off with something that is designed to be a good meatshield and puts resources into it.If the cleric ever came close without giving up major, major things then AC would need a boost in power.Now, I know you wont agree with this. I am not sure how you can expect your cleric to be as good as the psion in this case. The cleric is better in nearly every other way than the psion and the cleric starts off gimped, and yet you are so surprised by the psion being better that it bothers you. Very confusing.</blockquote>

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