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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dacileva" data-source="post: 3792464" data-attributes="member: 12957">I'm with Ari here...  Purely from memory, which may be faulty:All 2e classes except bard are closer to the 1e classes than the 3e classes are.  The 3e bard is more like the 2e bard than the 1e bard.2e races were more like 1e than 3e races are; the relegation of subraces to the MM actually means that, including subraces, the 2e PHB had much more in common with the 1e PHB than the 3e PH does to either, regardless of the restoration of the half-orc (the only race 1e and 3e have in the PH that 2e doesn't).1e didn't have optional miniatures rules so much as the measurements forced you to assume that miniatures were always being used (FFS, spell ranges were in inches).  2e added more reasonable miniatures rules, and 3e changed from both to fully integrate optional tactical rules that could use miniatures or not.1e's gold values for magic items were amazingly arbitrary.  2e included the same information about crafting techniques as 1e did (talk to the DM).  3e's item creation feats, costs and prerequisites are a huge step away from both prior versions.These have been in every edition.  For the early part of 2e, their names were changed due to rampant religious hostility towards D&D, but the plethora of demons and devils in 3e are more like 2e's ever-increasing varieties of baatezu and tanar'ri than like 1e's flat Type I-VI demons.Legends & Lore 2e was far more like Deities & Demigods 1e than the 3e Deities & Demigods is like either, and the more recent addition of Aspects makes things even more different (in good ways, IMO).These were present in 2e as well, and 3e's treatment of them is much farther from either 1e or 2e than 2e was from 1e.This one, I'll give you, except that 3e follows 2e's lead in having a given spell behave mostly the same regardless of who casts it (instead of having totally independent cleric, druid, magic-user and illusionist versions of each common spell).I never saw any of this in 1e.  Some commentary on things like inherently contradictory initiative systems would have been nice.This is setting-based, not mechanics-based.  Forgotten Realms started the NPC-driven narrative in 1e, and I wasn't very happy about the prevalence of NPCs linked to Gygax's games in 1e Greyhawk.Let's add in:- Arbitrary rules with no relation to any other part of the rules: 1e and 2e, not 3e.- Thief skills: similar between 1e and 2e, totally different in 3e.- Proficiencies: a bit different between 1e/UA and 2e, completely different in 3e.- Saving throws: nearly-identical between 1e and 2e, totally different in 3e.- Initiative: 2e tried to pick one of 1e's mechanics for initiative and go with it; 3e changed it completely.- Demihuman level limits: similar between 1e and 2e; completely gone in 3e.- Racial class restrictions: similar between 1e and 2e; completely gone in 3e.- Geometric XP needed/level progression: similar between 1e and 2e, significantly changed in 3e (as well as 3e's removal of the 1e/2e different and often arbitrary XP charts for each class).- Multiclassing: similar in 1e and 2e (basically a level behind, split XP), completely different in 3e.THAC0 in 2e was a direct calculation from the hit charts from 1e, while 3e's BAB and flipped AC is a significant departure, and the d20 mechanic itself is a big change from 2e, which in general only contained slight adjustments of 1e's mechanics.I think these are the kinds of reasons why people seem disconcerted at your description of 3e as closer to 1e than 2e was.</blockquote>

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