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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3792587" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't think you showed what you think you showed.  I think you just showed that 1e and 2e were very close mechanically.  What just showed about 3e is that to the extent that it was close to 2e, it was also very close to 1e, and hense what you showed was that if it is derived from 2e it very likely could have been derived from 1e or 2e because the differences between the two are small.My response is that 3e reversed course and undid virtually every change between 2e and 1e except for a few that I've already mentioned (bards and dragons).  And this reversal of course is even more dramatic when you compare 3e to late 2e innovations and design direction (which was moving toward using point buy to create custom on the fly classes for your concept).  You can still find a few 2e era players that think the game should have moved in that direction.  But speaking for alot of 1e DM's I've heard relate the same story, alot of the 3e innovations where cleaner versions of house rules that grognards that never left 1e were using.  I was using something very much like AoO in my games.  Delta mentions independently using the D20 mechanic.The 2nd edition game took me by surprise.  I couldn't figure out why the changes were made.  The 3rd edition game was like someone took the laundry list of problems I'd accumulated over years of DMing and then 'washed my clothes' for me.</blockquote>

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