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For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8083541" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>That's exactly what it is. And illustrated how you were wrong, but you dismissed it, and said I was "just pointing out differences". Yeah, exactly. I was pointing out that you were wrong, and it required you to ignore a bunch of stuff to claim they're the same. Pointing out the differences is pretty fundamental to understanding how things are different, y'know? How is that unreasonable?</p><p></p><p>The structure of noir is fundamentally different - but much more similar to The Witcher. Typically, an attractive person asks the investigator to investigate something, there's a murky mystery involving a lot of twists, action, maybe sex and so on, everyone comes out of it dirty, including the original attractive person, who has often done something very wrong themselves.</p><p></p><p>Now that could describe tons of noir, and a lot of Witcher stuff. But it couldn't describe most S&S (it could describe a small proportion though)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Has Moorcock actually said that re: Left/Right, or is that your interpretation?</p><p></p><p>Now, full disclosure, I've written entire essays on way Law and Chaos represent, and how they present as themes in literature throughout human history. To me I see no match to conventional understandings of Left/Right politics. Rather they fit closely to the Authoritarian-Libertarian axis of politics (which cuts across Left/Right politics - you can be be Right and Libertarian, or Left and Authoritarian, or vice-versa). And Moorcock himself has strongly Left-wing politics by British definitions (with libertarian leanings like many from his era). I've heard people call Authoritarian/Libertarian Up/Down instead of Left/Right, which I think works (though I suspect there are other axes out there too).</p><p></p><p>(All that said I wouldn't be astounded if he did, because in the 1960s and 1970s there was a strong association between generally Authoritarian attitudes to governance and the British Right, and generally Libertarian ones, and the British Left, something which later got a lot messier.)</p><p></p><p>But to your general point re: strong morality, yes. Moorcock himself has said that he considers his work an heir more to REH and so on, and obviously many are familiar with "Epic Pooh" (Moorcock's 1978 takedown of LotR/Tolkien - available <a href="https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentstudents/undergraduate/modules/en361fantastika/bibliography/2.7moorcock_m.1978epic_pooh.pdf" target="_blank">here</a>). There are differences to earlier S&S - but there are differences with Fritz Leiber's stuff too - and they also have a sort of increasing morality as things go on. It's not a conventional one, but both of the heroes know when they've "gone too far". The general vibe is pretty similar though, and the Eternal Champion stuff only occasionally gets centre stage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8083541, member: 18"] That's exactly what it is. And illustrated how you were wrong, but you dismissed it, and said I was "just pointing out differences". Yeah, exactly. I was pointing out that you were wrong, and it required you to ignore a bunch of stuff to claim they're the same. Pointing out the differences is pretty fundamental to understanding how things are different, y'know? How is that unreasonable? The structure of noir is fundamentally different - but much more similar to The Witcher. Typically, an attractive person asks the investigator to investigate something, there's a murky mystery involving a lot of twists, action, maybe sex and so on, everyone comes out of it dirty, including the original attractive person, who has often done something very wrong themselves. Now that could describe tons of noir, and a lot of Witcher stuff. But it couldn't describe most S&S (it could describe a small proportion though) Has Moorcock actually said that re: Left/Right, or is that your interpretation? Now, full disclosure, I've written entire essays on way Law and Chaos represent, and how they present as themes in literature throughout human history. To me I see no match to conventional understandings of Left/Right politics. Rather they fit closely to the Authoritarian-Libertarian axis of politics (which cuts across Left/Right politics - you can be be Right and Libertarian, or Left and Authoritarian, or vice-versa). And Moorcock himself has strongly Left-wing politics by British definitions (with libertarian leanings like many from his era). I've heard people call Authoritarian/Libertarian Up/Down instead of Left/Right, which I think works (though I suspect there are other axes out there too). (All that said I wouldn't be astounded if he did, because in the 1960s and 1970s there was a strong association between generally Authoritarian attitudes to governance and the British Right, and generally Libertarian ones, and the British Left, something which later got a lot messier.) But to your general point re: strong morality, yes. Moorcock himself has said that he considers his work an heir more to REH and so on, and obviously many are familiar with "Epic Pooh" (Moorcock's 1978 takedown of LotR/Tolkien - available [URL='https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/english/currentstudents/undergraduate/modules/en361fantastika/bibliography/2.7moorcock_m.1978epic_pooh.pdf']here[/URL]). There are differences to earlier S&S - but there are differences with Fritz Leiber's stuff too - and they also have a sort of increasing morality as things go on. It's not a conventional one, but both of the heroes know when they've "gone too far". The general vibe is pretty similar though, and the Eternal Champion stuff only occasionally gets centre stage. [/QUOTE]
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