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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 8087009" data-attributes="member: 5142">I don't think that this is charitable or accurate reading of what pemerton is saying. My reading of @permeton's argument is that the difference is not about whether one set of stories are character driven or not, but, rather, it amounts to the relationship of the protagonists to external moral codes. In S&S the protagonists are imposing their own sense of morality on the world. Conan, for example, is not dancing to the beat of anyone's drum but his own. Even Elric is more or less refusing to follow the moral codes or expectations of a Melnibonéan Emperor, which is precisely why his cousin opposes him. In epic fantasy, the characters are primarily acting in accordance with some form of moral or societal expectations. We do see this, for example, in The Illiad, The Odyssey, and Beowulf. The characters are partially measured by the degree to which they conform to social norms of moral codes. It's even often when they break those moral expectations that we see them fall or stumble (e.g., Boromir, Achilles, Odysseus, King Arthur, etc.). Aragorn is being measured against and acting in accordance to the expectations of his royal bloodline. Many of the main villains of Middle Earth (e.g., Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman) are fundamentally those that turned their back on Eru (God). Considering the Taoism behind Earthsea or the Roman Catholicism behind LotR, I would not be so sure about that. A Wizard of Earthsea is basically a Bildungsroman in which the protagonist is only able to confront the evil of their own creation once they understand the underlying Taoist "morality of the world". And do the moral codes and morality of the world not come into play when Odysseus angers Poseidon? Does the morality of the world not come into play when Agammenon's army spurred the wrath of Artemis, forcing him to sacrifice his daughter to appease his goddess? Or when Achilles desecrates the corpse of Hector? There are so many instances where the "morality of the world" comes into play for characters in these historical epics that it's almost fruitless to try listing them all.</blockquote>

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