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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 5775010" data-attributes="member: 7006">I was reading the threads over in New Horizons about Lethality in #dndnext, and how the dials could be set up for it... when I came back to the discussions a lot of us had here about what we did or didn't like about 4E's dying rules.  And an idea came to me about it that I'm actually very curious whether it somewhat "solves" the problem for those of you who aren't fans?  So I'm offering something here to see what the reaction would be, and whether it would actually help the immersion for 4E's rules enough that you wouldn't be so adverse to them... or if it still doesn't go far enough and doesn't really solve the problem for you.The big issue was the idea that once you dropped to 0 hit points or less... a Warlord could theoretically "shout you healthy", and you'd regain hit points.  Or you could use a Second Wind and regain them the same way.  Which would be fine if hit points were actually just "energy" per se... but since the assumption was always that hit points included actual wounds... that you'd have cuts and bruises magically disappearing just by giving the player an "Attaboy! Get back in there!".  This is especially true based on the fact that you could actually fail 3 death saves and die while "unconscious" and below 0... which implied on the face of it that there were actually wounds being suffered.Goodness knows we all went back and forth on this, trying to give explanations to one another as to how any of this could be possible, whether it matters, whether immersion is broken or not, etc. etc.  But now I've thought of a very easy rule to add to the 4E rules to possibly(?) solve the issue.  It goes like this:Hit points are energy and not true wounds, and once you drop to 0 HP or below... you are out of energy and are under the Unconscious condition (not that you are actually knocked out cold, but rather are on hands and knees shaking out cobwebs, dealing with aches and pains etc.)  Now while you are below 0 at this point, you DO NOT make death saves.  It is impossible to die just from being under 0 HP straight away.  Thus, any energy-saving or morale-saving techniques can get you back into the fight a la the regular healing rules because you truly are using second winds and such.  Inspiring Word and Second Wind can be effective.It is only if you are HIT AGAIN (for any amount of damage) while under the Unconscious condition that you now become "dying".  It is assumed that that single hit while you weren't looking and unable to defend yourself was basically a Killing Blow type of attack.  Now once that hit occurs... you are now actually knocked out cold and bleeding out, and NOW begin making Death Saves at the top of each of your turns.  And like the normal rules, if you fail 3, you die.  Now once you are in this state and knocked out, you are effectively out of the fight entirely and cannot get back up, even if you are healed.  If a PC uses the Heal skill or uses a "spend a healing surge" power... the knocked out player no longer has to make death saves and their HP returns to 0... but they also CANNOT get back up and rejoin the fight.  They've suffered whatever debilitating injury occurred during that Killing Blow, and thus remain out cold through the rest of the encounter, and possibly for whatever length of time the DM determines that "bad injuries" last (whether that be 5 minutes, through an extended rest, a week of bedrest, etc.)Here's what I think we gain from this idea... that the DM has to CHOOSE to set the PCs on the dying track, by making the decision for the monsters to attack the PC one final time with a Killing Blow while he's down (either by directly attacking the PC, or by including the PC in a burst/blast attack).  If the DM doesn't want to be that lethal about it, then he just has the monsters ignore the downed PC, and they'll possibly re-enter the fight if/when some healing is used on them.  But it also means that once a PC receives that Killing Blow and is "bleeding out" by rolling death saves... they ain't getting back into the fight regardless of what kind of healing is then given to them.  They are done for that enounter.  The wound was too great.Now yes, this does make the game less randomly lethal, because it eliminates the Negative Bloodied insta-death rule, and it also requires the DM to purposely spend a monster attack action to deliver a Killing Blow and thus start the PC on the 3 death save track... but it does help give a reason why a PC with less than 0 HP can get up via Second Wind or Inspiring Word, but also cannot get up once they are making death saves.What do you think?  Does this work at all?*EDIT* Thinking about it quickly... there's still the point of Inspiring Word being used as the "spend a healing surge" power that stops a dying PC from having to make death saves, which I guess technically still contributes to the problem.  So I wonder if that once a player is "dying", that the only way to stop the bleeding is through the use of the Heal skill?  So that a PC has to get within Melee 1 to help him, and thus you can't heal him from range?  I know that probably some of you might want "magical healing" to be able to stop the bleeding while "shouting healing" can't... but that might be trying to gimp the warlord and bard more than the cleric or shaman?  I dunno.</blockquote>

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