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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6397576" data-attributes="member: 2011">This is actually a bit in favor of the strength based melee attacker when talking medium sized foes. Granted, he has to roll higher and the defender can roll Str or Dex, but the odds of knocking someone off a cliff with this system ranges from about 40% (high str/dex foe) to 65% (low str/dex foe) without Athletics trained. Many medium sized foes in the MM have at best 14 Str or Dex (obviously not most of the larger creatures). Very few creatures actually have Athletics or Acrobatics, so the odds are really good for str based PCs to easily do this. The save tends to be subpar if the attacker has a better bonus (which is often the case for str PCs).A Str based PC with Athletics trained can use this right and left with a high degree of success. The save means little.And the higher the PC gets, the more he is able to shove even larger and stronger creatures off of cliffs.A 17th level 20 Str Fighter with Athletics trained has a 50/50 chance of pushing the Tarrasque off a cliff.</blockquote>