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Forget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7259810" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>It doesn't specifically have to be magic items (in 1e, a big chunk of it was training, for instance), and the point is that 5e isn't like all past editions of D&D in having treasure reliably feed back into character advancement. Because that's a D&D thing that CRPGs &c have imitated (or arrived at via convergent gamevolution, if you prefer).</p><p></p><p>Character advancement has always been a huge part of D&D, and 5e does back away from it on two fronts: BA, in the form of muted, identical 'proficiency' instead of more rapid or varied advancement, and no 'assumed' magic items (no wealth/level or make/buy) or other progression of gear with level. </p><p></p><p>Frankly, it's amazing it's gotten away with it to the degree it has... </p><p></p><p>... my theory is that 3e & 4e made the magic-item portion of advancement to obvious (and, in the case of 4e, too nearly-balanced), it was one of those 'seeing the strings' issues that got built up during the edition war, and 5e felt the need to get away from that. 5e magic items are back to ranging from meh to game-breaking and fairly arbitrary in their ability to do things characters just can't otherwise - so very familiar and 'feeling really magical' to those of us who formed our vision of D&D in the TSR era - the fig-leaf that covers that imbalance is that they are, again, like the TSR era, the DM's to dole out, not the players' to make/buy. </p><p></p><p>You can have 3e magic items that mostly just replicate spells the maker could cast anyway (even if that can be quite a lot of power), or 4e magic items that factor into lockstep scaling, and have robust wealth/level guidelines and a workable make/buy system, or you can have character-re-defining and campaign-wrecking magic items, and make them the DM's responsibility, so when they wreck his campaign, it's his own damn fault, and he should just throw some Disenchanters or something at the characters. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>But 3e/4e wealth/level & make/buy with 0e/AD&D/5e items? Might as well nuke your campaign world from orbit.</p><p></p><p> That'd be a more detailed, possibly more interesting version of old-school 'training costs' to level. (4e had a system of alternate rewards, boons, and 'grandmaster training' that leveraged it's magic-item cost system to provide something along those lines, already - it's workable, but they were along the lines of neatly-balanced, not-really-magical benefits of D&D items, which is probably fine for 'special training'). </p><p></p><p>It is the kind of thing the complainants are bucking for - as it does feed treasure back into the character's capability, keeping the D&D advancement dynamic rolling.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Arguing against it certainly isn't. ;P Semi-seriously, 5e /is/ supposed to be for fans of all past editions, but, when it comes to magic items it's very much for TSR-era fans, and can't readily be tweaked to match WotC-era expectations.</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, nostalgia is at the root of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7259810, member: 996"] It doesn't specifically have to be magic items (in 1e, a big chunk of it was training, for instance), and the point is that 5e isn't like all past editions of D&D in having treasure reliably feed back into character advancement. Because that's a D&D thing that CRPGs &c have imitated (or arrived at via convergent gamevolution, if you prefer). Character advancement has always been a huge part of D&D, and 5e does back away from it on two fronts: BA, in the form of muted, identical 'proficiency' instead of more rapid or varied advancement, and no 'assumed' magic items (no wealth/level or make/buy) or other progression of gear with level. Frankly, it's amazing it's gotten away with it to the degree it has... ... my theory is that 3e & 4e made the magic-item portion of advancement to obvious (and, in the case of 4e, too nearly-balanced), it was one of those 'seeing the strings' issues that got built up during the edition war, and 5e felt the need to get away from that. 5e magic items are back to ranging from meh to game-breaking and fairly arbitrary in their ability to do things characters just can't otherwise - so very familiar and 'feeling really magical' to those of us who formed our vision of D&D in the TSR era - the fig-leaf that covers that imbalance is that they are, again, like the TSR era, the DM's to dole out, not the players' to make/buy. You can have 3e magic items that mostly just replicate spells the maker could cast anyway (even if that can be quite a lot of power), or 4e magic items that factor into lockstep scaling, and have robust wealth/level guidelines and a workable make/buy system, or you can have character-re-defining and campaign-wrecking magic items, and make them the DM's responsibility, so when they wreck his campaign, it's his own damn fault, and he should just throw some Disenchanters or something at the characters. ;) But 3e/4e wealth/level & make/buy with 0e/AD&D/5e items? Might as well nuke your campaign world from orbit. That'd be a more detailed, possibly more interesting version of old-school 'training costs' to level. (4e had a system of alternate rewards, boons, and 'grandmaster training' that leveraged it's magic-item cost system to provide something along those lines, already - it's workable, but they were along the lines of neatly-balanced, not-really-magical benefits of D&D items, which is probably fine for 'special training'). It is the kind of thing the complainants are bucking for - as it does feed treasure back into the character's capability, keeping the D&D advancement dynamic rolling. Arguing against it certainly isn't. ;P Semi-seriously, 5e /is/ supposed to be for fans of all past editions, but, when it comes to magic items it's very much for TSR-era fans, and can't readily be tweaked to match WotC-era expectations. So, yeah, nostalgia is at the root of it. [/QUOTE]
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