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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dire Bare" data-source="post: 6764279" data-attributes="member: 18182">For me, this argument (in or out of character) that the gods are gods is a battle of semantics. Not even the Athar faction from Planescape denies the existence of gods. Rather, it is the definition and meaning of gods, and whether they are worthy of worship and veneration, that is key.Note: Loremaster I am not, this is pulled from my memory (I've been reading the game books and novels since the 80s) and from my interpretation of what I've read.The "gods" of the Realms are very powerful beings who demand worship and claim dominion and influence over various spheres of existence. That they exist, and that they are a higher order of being than mortals is fact and cannot be denied, except possibly by those who are insane. But what mortals can, and will, do is deny the importance of the gods, that the gods have any right to be worshiped, and that the gods have any true divine mandate or connection with the cosmos and are anything more than very powerful beings. Mortals can reject the gods. And if the gods of FR gain power through worship, this cannot be allowed. Hence, the Wall.Mortals of the Realms worship all of the gods known to their culture, and may or may not have a specific favorite, or patron. When mortals die and pass on to the Fugue Plane, if they have a specific patron deity, they are met by servants of that power and escorted to their divine reward. If not, they have some options as the wander the Fugue, and likely they will be offered divine rest/reward by an appropriate deity, or Kelemvor will make that call for them.If they reject the gods, however, and basically refuse to play the game by the divine rules . . . it's the Wall, or one of the lesser punishments decreed by Kelemvor. This judgement would take into account how the person lived their mortal life, but also on the decisions their spirit makes once they reach the Fugue Plane.From what I remember of Adon's story (Avatar series of FR novels), he wasn't threatened with the Wall because he categorically denied the existence of the gods . . . that wouldn't make him faithless, just insane. He rejected the gods that were most important to him, Sune and Mystra. And as far as I remember, neither goddess was after Adon for his crime, but Kelemvor had to judge him according to divine law.I'm fairly certain that in FR cosmology, the Wall isn't filled with people who didn't believe in the gods, or who denied their existence, but with people, good, neutral, and evil, that rejected the gods. So, the percentage of souls that get mortared in the Wall is probably pretty small, but still, it's a tragic and horrific punishment for someone who possibly lived a just life.Which is why, the concept makes me uncomfortable in my escapist, heroic fantasy fiction. Even though it tracks with similar examples of different real-world faiths.I don't run an FR game, although I do read the novels, comics, and gamebooks. This particular issue doesn't come up very often, in fact, the only stories I'm recalling at the moment are the Avatar series that traces the rise (and fall) of Mystra (Midnight), Kelemvor, and Cyric beginning in the Time of Troubles. And, of course it's mentioned in the game books when discussing the gods, planes, and cosmology of FR. It's one of the few elements of the setting I truly don't care for.In my own campaigns, I borrow heavily from FR. I like the idea of a limbo, the Fugue Plane, and I like the concept of a neutral, but harshly fair, Judge of the Dead. I'm even okay with the gruesome imagery of a wall made of people (or people-shaped souls). But my Judge of the Dead is more fair, and the "faithless" end up petitioners in the Land of the Dead itself, serving the Judge for all eternity, rather than getting mortared into a wall of souls. Those who get mortared into the Wall are souls who are not claimed by any gods and either refuse to serve the Judge of the Dead, or are deemed unworthy of his service for some reason. Still dark, but less tragic and cosmically unfair and horrific. IMO, of course.</blockquote>

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