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[Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6788645" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>That doesn't really defeat the point, of course. Even if it's only SOME CHARACTER who sees it that way, it's no different from SOME CHARACTER who sees the sorcerer kings as in need of a good coup, or SOME CHARACTER who sees the Dragonarmies as in need of a good stompin'. You made a protagonist, and there is this antagonist, and GO FOR IT. </p><p></p><p>You don't need to agree with it to see that it's not really changing the appeal of the setting to change the Wall. </p><p></p><p></p><p>We've been over this a LOT in the last 60 pages, and I don't see anything new here. In the real world, where judgement in the afterlife can lead to punishment and reward, that judgement is never constrained purely by doctrinal allegiance, it is <strong>nearly always</strong> dependent on a morality greater than a single religious tradition. Whether it's the pope saying Atheists are welcome in heaven, or Ma'at weighing order and obedience against chaos and destruction, or Mormons praying for the dead, or Valhalla welcoming those who die in battle (whatever their nationality), or any one of an insanely huge number of examples. The exceptions are notable for being exceptions (and for often being repudiated by orthodox tradition). To pretend otherwise is to deeply misunderstand the cosmology and worldview of hundreds of millions of people living and dead. </p><p></p><p>And there's no reading of "A good person can get put into the wall" that makes it NOT an aberration of justice. </p><p></p><p></p><p>There's no other settings here, just FR and the assumptions that FR itself embraces, which are explicity inclusive of other worlds' assumptions. FR isn't a myopic setting, it's a sprawling kitchen sink that includes a multitude of other settings and worlds alongside Toril. To ignore THAT is to ignore the setting as it's presented.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's also a great change to the setting, slaying its motivating evil.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not clear how proposing a story where the PC's tear down the Wall has anything to do with re-writing Dragonlance. </p><p></p><p></p><p>All Dragonlance campaigns are the same story? Just a river-and-lakes model where you aren't allowed to change anything significant? Then I'm better off reading novels and playing videogames. This is D&D, I want to collaborate in telling a heroic fantasy story about MY CHARACTER and the party they are in, to throw plans into a blender and see what pops out. I'm not interested in <em>Telltale Games presents: The War of the Lance</em>, I'm interested in doing what D&D does best: emergent storytelling from the unexpected interaction of gameplay elements and player choices. If all I'm doing is playing Tasselhoff-lite, or Drizz't Knock-Off #228, then I don't get to define my story, and I'm not doing what I love using D&D to do. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Nah, WotC is just running through the gauntlet of iconic D&D villains (lots of cultists there). FR isn't necessarily a world of strong faith and religion. Or else the Dragonborn wouldn't be what they are, and Driz'zt's story would have more gods in it, and you wouldn't have the Wall of the Faithless relegated to a blurb in the books that a lot of people either ignore or downplay so much that it doesn't affect the party. The initial presentation of FR, again, was <strong>totally fine with the faithless</strong>. Faith isn't a core concept of FR (unlike, say, deep history, or common magic, which are pretty core to FR). </p><p></p><p>To envision the Realms as a world about faith is to ignore a <strong>boatload</strong> of lore on the Realms. It's seeing what you want to see (for some reason) instead of seeing what's there. What's there are athiest dragonborn and alternate cosmologies and spelljammers and the Great Wheel and portals to Real Earth and alternate worlds without gods and wars among the gods and ascended mortals and overgods and all those things that give a party a <strong>great</strong> reason to take down the Wall.</p><p></p><p>Saying FR is about characters with deep faith is like saying Planescape is about Bladelings, or Dark Sun is about Andropinis, or Dragonlance is about the Gully Dwarves. It's way, WAY too narrow a view of the setting, and arguably one that misses the real meat of what the setting provides.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6788645, member: 2067"] That doesn't really defeat the point, of course. Even if it's only SOME CHARACTER who sees it that way, it's no different from SOME CHARACTER who sees the sorcerer kings as in need of a good coup, or SOME CHARACTER who sees the Dragonarmies as in need of a good stompin'. You made a protagonist, and there is this antagonist, and GO FOR IT. You don't need to agree with it to see that it's not really changing the appeal of the setting to change the Wall. We've been over this a LOT in the last 60 pages, and I don't see anything new here. In the real world, where judgement in the afterlife can lead to punishment and reward, that judgement is never constrained purely by doctrinal allegiance, it is [B]nearly always[/B] dependent on a morality greater than a single religious tradition. Whether it's the pope saying Atheists are welcome in heaven, or Ma'at weighing order and obedience against chaos and destruction, or Mormons praying for the dead, or Valhalla welcoming those who die in battle (whatever their nationality), or any one of an insanely huge number of examples. The exceptions are notable for being exceptions (and for often being repudiated by orthodox tradition). To pretend otherwise is to deeply misunderstand the cosmology and worldview of hundreds of millions of people living and dead. And there's no reading of "A good person can get put into the wall" that makes it NOT an aberration of justice. There's no other settings here, just FR and the assumptions that FR itself embraces, which are explicity inclusive of other worlds' assumptions. FR isn't a myopic setting, it's a sprawling kitchen sink that includes a multitude of other settings and worlds alongside Toril. To ignore THAT is to ignore the setting as it's presented. It's also a great change to the setting, slaying its motivating evil. I'm not clear how proposing a story where the PC's tear down the Wall has anything to do with re-writing Dragonlance. All Dragonlance campaigns are the same story? Just a river-and-lakes model where you aren't allowed to change anything significant? Then I'm better off reading novels and playing videogames. This is D&D, I want to collaborate in telling a heroic fantasy story about MY CHARACTER and the party they are in, to throw plans into a blender and see what pops out. I'm not interested in [I]Telltale Games presents: The War of the Lance[/I], I'm interested in doing what D&D does best: emergent storytelling from the unexpected interaction of gameplay elements and player choices. If all I'm doing is playing Tasselhoff-lite, or Drizz't Knock-Off #228, then I don't get to define my story, and I'm not doing what I love using D&D to do. Nah, WotC is just running through the gauntlet of iconic D&D villains (lots of cultists there). FR isn't necessarily a world of strong faith and religion. Or else the Dragonborn wouldn't be what they are, and Driz'zt's story would have more gods in it, and you wouldn't have the Wall of the Faithless relegated to a blurb in the books that a lot of people either ignore or downplay so much that it doesn't affect the party. The initial presentation of FR, again, was [B]totally fine with the faithless[/B]. Faith isn't a core concept of FR (unlike, say, deep history, or common magic, which are pretty core to FR). To envision the Realms as a world about faith is to ignore a [B]boatload[/B] of lore on the Realms. It's seeing what you want to see (for some reason) instead of seeing what's there. What's there are athiest dragonborn and alternate cosmologies and spelljammers and the Great Wheel and portals to Real Earth and alternate worlds without gods and wars among the gods and ascended mortals and overgods and all those things that give a party a [B]great[/B] reason to take down the Wall. Saying FR is about characters with deep faith is like saying Planescape is about Bladelings, or Dark Sun is about Andropinis, or Dragonlance is about the Gully Dwarves. It's way, WAY too narrow a view of the setting, and arguably one that misses the real meat of what the setting provides. [/QUOTE]
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