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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4970183" data-attributes="member: 4937">I only have the 3.0 PH handbook, and I didn't see this in the 3.5 SRD.  Nonetheless, even if we grant that it is true that the 'DM determines when combat begins and when it ends, not the player' (which I don't because it implies the PC can have the intention to engage in combat but the DM can refuse), you end up contridicting yourself.  Nothing prevents the following legal sequence of events:1) The PC's make a loud sound.2) The DM rolls a listen check for the orcs in the next room, who now are aware of the PC's.3) The DM rolls initiative for the orcs (the orcs are 'in combat', because the DM now must track how they use resources 'round by round', imagine the alternative if you disagree).   4) On the next round the PC's do something.  On the next round the orcs move to cover and ready an action to fire their crossbows at whoever opens the door.5) The PC's take several more rounds worth of actions.  On each round the orcs take the same ready action.6) Some PC opens the door unaware of the orcs (and thus flatfooted), and the orcs fire.All your criteria are met.  The DM determined when combat began, not the PC's.  Initiative was rolled at the 'beginning of battle', and no ready actions where made 'outside of combat' which is a meaningless phrase anyway, particularly if 'the DM can decide when combat begins'.   You seem to think that D&D operates with a combat subsystem like Ultima IV, Exile, DarkStone or something, were a button is clicked and all the sudden the physics of the world changes.  There is no need for that.  And from the above, it ought to be clear what is wrong with the following statement:It won't happen if you follow the rules.  They'll still get a maximum of two initial actions, the readied action and an additional one if they win initiative.  There is no surprise round because there is no oppurtunity for a surprise round (it was passed way back at the listen check).  But what is more important to notice is that the 'surprise round' is nothing more than a different way of looking at exactly what I just outlined.  A surprise round is nothing more than the readied action that was taken by the situationally aware side just before the first round of combat. Now, let's look at what happens if you ignore that.  Suppose the party is aware of some orcs in the distance, and they use their 'surprise round' to hide.  One of several awkward interpretations now will rule the day if we ignore the above logic.  Either the orcs can now not be ambushed despite the fact that they remain unaware of the party, because they've technically taken some action and are thus no longer flatfooted (though still not aware!), or else the party will be able to now attack as a full round action on the following round with the orcs flatfooted effectively getting a 'super surprise round' (to say nothing of what they could do to game the initiative count if the orcs are now forced to roll for initiative).  Neither is desirable, and both use bits of the rules in isolation to break the letter of the law and do things that supposedly you can't do (like take full actions on a surprise round or gaurantee that you always win initiative when you have surprise), whereas my reading ultimately leads to the expected outcome.1) 'Beginning of battle' means, "when the side becomes aware of the other"2) A party not already engaged in combat can at most only be attacked by a half action before it becomes aware, thus rolling initiative and beginning to take actions.  There is no 'super surprise'.  3) A party that becomes aware stops being flatfooted on its next action, regardless of whether 'hostilities' have formally begun and remains on gaurd unless cozened into dropping its guard or it ceases to be aware.  You can't surprise an aware party nor catch them flatfooted.  Just because you are 'ruthless' doesn't grant you super-speed.</blockquote>

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