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Forked - Flatfooted and the beginning of combat.
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<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 4970334" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>Firstly, leaving a bow or crossbow readied for long periods like that is a very quick way to destroy your bow or crossbow.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, how can someone "arrang(e) so that they never ended their turn standing in the corridor" when they have no way to knowing when one round ends and another begins?</p><p></p><p>Leaving those aside, the rules actually do handle that situation:</p><p></p><p>The situation: There an archer in a corridor, intent on shooting whoever crosses the intersection. A goblin approaches the intersection. Understandably, he doesn't want to get shot.</p><p></p><p>First: Check if either side is surprised. In this case, this will generally mean Listen checks vs Move Silently. (The archer should probably get a bonus because he's not moving; he should certainly get some bonus because he's presumably actively trying to be quiet, whereas the Goblin probably isn't.)</p><p></p><p>If the Goblin is surprised but the archer isn't, then the archer knows someone is coming, readies his action in the surprise round, and automatically gets to shoot.</p><p></p><p>If the archer is surprised but the Goblin isn't, then the archer definately doesn't get to shoot. He should have been paying more attention. (Is this really a problem?)</p><p></p><p>If both sides are surprised, or neither is, then we begin the first regular round. Remember: both Goblin and archer know that the other is there.</p><p></p><p>Second: Roll for initiative.</p><p></p><p>If the archer wins, he gets to take his shot. On his turn he gets to ready his action; when the Goblin moves, he fires.</p><p></p><p>If the Goblin wins, the archer doesn't get to shoot. He just wasn't quick enough off the draw. (Again, is this a problem?)</p><p></p><p>The only problem here occurs if the DM adjusts the Goblin's actions based on his (DM) knowledge of what the archer is going to do, or if the player adjusts the archer's actions based on his (player) knowledge of what the Goblin is going to do. (And, if we're actually dealing with two PCs, this may prove to be a greater problem, since one presumes both actions are declared out loud.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yep, all true. Of course, hostile action is only possible with long-range weapons, but we knew that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nah. If the PCs (or the bandits) decide to take hostile action, then roll for initiative at that point. If not, they continue to close. At some point, the groups identify one another. If they take hostile action at <em>that</em> point, roll for initiative <em>then]. (After the hostile action is declared; before it is resolved.)</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>The issue here is that "surprised" is not the same as "flat-footed". Yes, the two groups are warily approaching one another, keeping an eye on one another, looking for the slightest twitch. Therefore, neither can be surprised.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>However, the moment one of them <em>does</em> twitch, and they both "go for their guns", one of the two is going to be that fraction "quicker on the draw". And in that instant, while they act and the other side doesn't, they have a slight advantage. In other words, the loser of the initiative roll is flat-footed.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>As Hussar says, actually the rules do prevent it. The "special initiative actions" in the PHB (of which Ready is one) have no meaning when you're not acting in the initiative order.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Ultimately, if you want the PCs to listen to your villain monologuing, you need to discuss that with them. It's a playstyle issue - realistically, people don't wait for the bad guy to give a speech before unleashing hell. And, at the same time, you may want to agree a "last words" clause for PCs, allowing their character a chance to say something before they finally die.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>As for PC interruptions to the bad guy's speech, the issue is not one of catching the bad guy "off his guard" - he can't be surprised, after all. It's a matter of "throwing the first punch". Sure, as soon as you go for your sword, he's going to react, both in trying to avoid/block your attack, and also (most likely) in trying to wipe you out in turn. So, it becomes a matter of determining who goes first - the very thing Initiative is used to resolve.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>(What this does <em>not</em> advocate is that the PC's should be able to interrupt the bad guy's speech and consequently automatically win initiative and get a free round of actions. As soon as a PC declares he's going to interrupt, and <em>before</em> his interruption is resolved, you should roll for initiative. If the NPC wins, he obviously saw that slight twitch from the PC and just happened to get off his spell of mega-death first. (And, yes, he <em>did</em> know - or at least suspect - that you were going to attack; he just got there first.))</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 4970334, member: 22424"] Firstly, leaving a bow or crossbow readied for long periods like that is a very quick way to destroy your bow or crossbow. Secondly, how can someone "arrang(e) so that they never ended their turn standing in the corridor" when they have no way to knowing when one round ends and another begins? Leaving those aside, the rules actually do handle that situation: The situation: There an archer in a corridor, intent on shooting whoever crosses the intersection. A goblin approaches the intersection. Understandably, he doesn't want to get shot. First: Check if either side is surprised. In this case, this will generally mean Listen checks vs Move Silently. (The archer should probably get a bonus because he's not moving; he should certainly get some bonus because he's presumably actively trying to be quiet, whereas the Goblin probably isn't.) If the Goblin is surprised but the archer isn't, then the archer knows someone is coming, readies his action in the surprise round, and automatically gets to shoot. If the archer is surprised but the Goblin isn't, then the archer definately doesn't get to shoot. He should have been paying more attention. (Is this really a problem?) If both sides are surprised, or neither is, then we begin the first regular round. Remember: both Goblin and archer know that the other is there. Second: Roll for initiative. If the archer wins, he gets to take his shot. On his turn he gets to ready his action; when the Goblin moves, he fires. If the Goblin wins, the archer doesn't get to shoot. He just wasn't quick enough off the draw. (Again, is this a problem?) The only problem here occurs if the DM adjusts the Goblin's actions based on his (DM) knowledge of what the archer is going to do, or if the player adjusts the archer's actions based on his (player) knowledge of what the Goblin is going to do. (And, if we're actually dealing with two PCs, this may prove to be a greater problem, since one presumes both actions are declared out loud.) Yep, all true. Of course, hostile action is only possible with long-range weapons, but we knew that. Nah. If the PCs (or the bandits) decide to take hostile action, then roll for initiative at that point. If not, they continue to close. At some point, the groups identify one another. If they take hostile action at [i]that[/i] point, roll for initiative [i]then]. (After the hostile action is declared; before it is resolved.) The issue here is that "surprised" is not the same as "flat-footed". Yes, the two groups are warily approaching one another, keeping an eye on one another, looking for the slightest twitch. Therefore, neither can be surprised. However, the moment one of them [i]does[/i] twitch, and they both "go for their guns", one of the two is going to be that fraction "quicker on the draw". And in that instant, while they act and the other side doesn't, they have a slight advantage. In other words, the loser of the initiative roll is flat-footed. As Hussar says, actually the rules do prevent it. The "special initiative actions" in the PHB (of which Ready is one) have no meaning when you're not acting in the initiative order. Ultimately, if you want the PCs to listen to your villain monologuing, you need to discuss that with them. It's a playstyle issue - realistically, people don't wait for the bad guy to give a speech before unleashing hell. And, at the same time, you may want to agree a "last words" clause for PCs, allowing their character a chance to say something before they finally die. As for PC interruptions to the bad guy's speech, the issue is not one of catching the bad guy "off his guard" - he can't be surprised, after all. It's a matter of "throwing the first punch". Sure, as soon as you go for your sword, he's going to react, both in trying to avoid/block your attack, and also (most likely) in trying to wipe you out in turn. So, it becomes a matter of determining who goes first - the very thing Initiative is used to resolve. (What this does [i]not[/i] advocate is that the PC's should be able to interrupt the bad guy's speech and consequently automatically win initiative and get a free round of actions. As soon as a PC declares he's going to interrupt, and [i]before[/i] his interruption is resolved, you should roll for initiative. If the NPC wins, he obviously saw that slight twitch from the PC and just happened to get off his spell of mega-death first. (And, yes, he [i]did[/i] know - or at least suspect - that you were going to attack; he just got there first.))[/i] [/QUOTE]
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