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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4970647" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yes, although you have to use 'surprised' in the widest sense here.  When the bandits road out of the woods 300' away in my original example, both the party and the bandits where initially unaware of each other.  Because they were both in the open and not hiding, both pretty much immediately detected the other.  But everyone is at that point flat-footed, because no one expected to encounter the other and they are relatively unprepared for the attack of someone from that particular direction, at this time, at that range, etc.So far me and everyone else in the thread agrees.  Where we radically depart from each other is everyone else in the thread seems to be arguing that if neither side attacks immediately, then they cannot take ready actions, or move actions, or other sorts of 'combat actions' and hense both sides remain flat footed indefinately until one side takes an attack action, at which point we roll initiative and the winners surprise the losers (catch them flat-footed).  That is, if the bandits take a move action, ready an action, and use their free action to speak, because this is somehow 'out of combat' and all such actions would be illegal. Flat footed by the way means:So what everyone else is saying is effectively that no matter what you do, no matter how alert you are, no matter how on gaurd you are, you can't prepare for an attack so you will always be unready, unvigilant, zoned out, and unwatchful.Does that seem reasonable to you?In my games, if you wanted to try to catch someone alert flatfooted, you would use bluff to cozen the target, or distract them so someone could hide, or otherwise set them up - to which they could oppose your actions with a sense motive check.  There would be no automatically setting an alert target flat-footed with no chance to defend on their part just because you declared - 'ruthless attack'.   And that would work both ways.</blockquote>

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