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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 4970678" data-attributes="member: 8835">this is an interesting thread.I've never liked the surprise rules.  A round of free attacks before the real round always seemed hard to abjudicate when it qualified.When 3e introduced flat-footed, that looked like a better rule candidate.  Roll low for init, you're flatfooted (simulating surprise).If I were making house rules, I'd consider giving an init bonus to simulate surprise, in situations where one side is clearly aware of the other, and the other side is clueless.  This would ensure they likely get to attack first, and the flat-footed rule simulates that vulnerability.I'd also consider that if both parties have weapons drawn and are "prepared for immediate combat, expecting trouble", then there'd be no flat-footed.  A party moving in a dungeon is likely expecting trouble.  Orcs in a dungeon room probably aren't, unless an alert was sent.If a PC isn't aware of an NPC, the NPC doesn't exist.  The DM chooses the NPCs status when he discloses the existance of the NPC to the PC.  Therefore, it is unnecesary for an NPC to roll initiative until the PC effectively becomes aware.Whereas, a PC can/should roll initiative when he is aware of the NPC, and planning to enter combat, so you can measure out spell durations, and movement speed as the NPC moves through the space.  I would only roll init because combat is pretty obvious.Thus, orcs in a room who here a noise and get ready for an attack, they don't have to roll initiative.  The PC trigger initiative when they open the door and the orc are going to open fire.  At this point, that's either a surprise round check, or an init bonus for the orcs (house rule idea), or just normal initiative.  If the PCs are clearing rooms SWAT team style, they're ready for this kind of trouble, normal initiative, probably no flat-footed.  If this is the PCs home, and they're just going to the barracks for a nap, you can bet this is a surprise attempt or flat-footedness would apply.Additionally, if you're not actively holding a weapon, you're un-armed.  Any unarmed bonus/penalty would apply, in addition to being flat-footed if you lost init.  Furthermoe, you'd have to spend an action to draw a weapon (the real reason for quick-draw feat), costing you an attack, depending on the rules (i'm too lazy to look it up, and it varies on the rule set).As for "readying an action", here's a test.  Take 2 people, and hand them nerf guns.Put 1 person in a room, make him sit on the far side, give him something to hide behind.  Tell him that he should expect an opponent to come in at any time, and he is to shoot him as a surprise attack.  Close the door.Then have the second person wait outside the room quietly for a random amount of time.  Then, he is to make a noise, like a bump on the door.  Then he is to wait again, for even longer.  Then he is to open the door and shoot the person in the room.The point of the test is to see what it's like to be the person in the room.  He knows somebody will enter the room. He's ready for it.  Odds are good, that for a few minutes, after the close of the door, and the first bump, he'll be very alert.  But as time passes his attention will drift.  This is the real world limit of "ready an action".Personally, I think the Surprise Round rules are crap.  I suspect that the flat-footed and draw a weapon and unarmed AC penalties would simulate surprise just as well.  Throw in a spot check to avoid an INIT penalty, and you'd have a decent set of surprise/initiating combat rules.</blockquote>

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