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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4970963" data-attributes="member: 4937">There is an invisible creature in the room and the attackers fail a listen check.&nbsp; The players are hustling to reach some goal and they decide to split up.&nbsp; The invisible attacker uses a buff with a duration in rounds and tries to attack (surprise round) but rolls a 1 misses.&nbsp; If some players act in certain ways on an initiative count better than the invisible attacker (that they still aren't aware of) they might be able to move to a situation that they cant' be attacked in.&nbsp; What happens on the players turn and are we 'in combat' now?&nbsp; Can the PC's take 'in combat' actions, like move actions, ect. despite the fact that there characters still don't actually know they are being attacked?What guidelines does 3.x give for when and when you can't roll for initiative?&nbsp; Does 3.x clearly define 'start of the battle' as anything other than 'roll for initiative' and does it define any point where we clearly must stop being 'in battle' especially if we are still aware of a potential enemy?&nbsp; If not, how am I outside the rules?I am abiding by the structure of the rules.&nbsp; From my perspective, you are the one trying to make them very narrowly applicable to set peice engagements only since you aren't addressing the very basic point.This conversation is beginning to take on a certain surreal quality.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4970963, member: 4937"] There is an invisible creature in the room and the attackers fail a listen check. The players are hustling to reach some goal and they decide to split up. The invisible attacker uses a buff with a duration in rounds and tries to attack (surprise round) but rolls a 1 misses. If some players act in certain ways on an initiative count better than the invisible attacker (that they still aren't aware of) they might be able to move to a situation that they cant' be attacked in. What happens on the players turn and are we 'in combat' now? Can the PC's take 'in combat' actions, like move actions, ect. despite the fact that there characters still don't actually know they are being attacked? What guidelines does 3.x give for when and when you can't roll for initiative? Does 3.x clearly define 'start of the battle' as anything other than 'roll for initiative' and does it define any point where we clearly must stop being 'in battle' especially if we are still aware of a potential enemy? If not, how am I outside the rules? I am abiding by the structure of the rules. From my perspective, you are the one trying to make them very narrowly applicable to set peice engagements only since you aren't addressing the very basic point. This conversation is beginning to take on a certain surreal quality. [/QUOTE]

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