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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4971624" data-attributes="member: 4937">See, I agree with both of these statements.&nbsp; Where we seem to mainly disagree is over where we can say 'combat' has begun.&nbsp; Various people have tried to define where it 'must' begin, but their definitions are generally suitably broad as to encompass what I have claimed.As for those people that claim that the ready action would always let you go first, there are numerous problems with this claim, but the most inassailable one if your PC's try to rules lawyer you over it is have all of the monsters that achieve suprise ready an action in response to the players attack.&nbsp; By the rules, this lets them always attack first.&nbsp; It's not the ideal situation, but it does have the advantage of turning the player's own bad interpretation of the rules against them.&nbsp; Of course, you can really rub it in by using their own interpretation in even more deginerate ways, but what you are really going for is to just stop them from trying to rules lawyer.&nbsp; The correct interpretation is that even if you have a readied action, if you are surprised, you can't act for a complete action.&nbsp; All having a readied action at the begining of combat gets you is you effectively win initiative, but then may find yourself unable to act at all on the first round of combat because you where prepared for the wrong thing or you give up a full attack action where you may have wanted it.&nbsp; It does not fix everything.And in any event, whether or not you can hold readied actions 'outside of combat' (a phrase I continue to find absolutely meaningless), that debate is not central to my main point which is, if you are aware of a threat and take an action, you are no longer flatfooted.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4971624, member: 4937"] See, I agree with both of these statements. Where we seem to mainly disagree is over where we can say 'combat' has begun. Various people have tried to define where it 'must' begin, but their definitions are generally suitably broad as to encompass what I have claimed. As for those people that claim that the ready action would always let you go first, there are numerous problems with this claim, but the most inassailable one if your PC's try to rules lawyer you over it is have all of the monsters that achieve suprise ready an action in response to the players attack. By the rules, this lets them always attack first. It's not the ideal situation, but it does have the advantage of turning the player's own bad interpretation of the rules against them. Of course, you can really rub it in by using their own interpretation in even more deginerate ways, but what you are really going for is to just stop them from trying to rules lawyer. The correct interpretation is that even if you have a readied action, if you are surprised, you can't act for a complete action. All having a readied action at the begining of combat gets you is you effectively win initiative, but then may find yourself unable to act at all on the first round of combat because you where prepared for the wrong thing or you give up a full attack action where you may have wanted it. It does not fix everything. And in any event, whether or not you can hold readied actions 'outside of combat' (a phrase I continue to find absolutely meaningless), that debate is not central to my main point which is, if you are aware of a threat and take an action, you are no longer flatfooted. [/QUOTE]

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