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<blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 4971746" data-attributes="member: 8835">I'm going to look at a different angle.&nbsp; Namely, what me and my friends commonly do, which seems to gloss over most of this nit-picking.&nbsp; This is under at least 3 different DMs, including one who only comes down once a year or so.&nbsp; (Meaning we have 2 groups who evolved to play it the same way).In most encounters, we've never applied the flat-footed penalty.&nbsp; It's like we forget about it.&nbsp; We also RARELY have a surprise round, if ever.&nbsp; We usually manage to convince the DM that we should have surprise, based on the in-game state.&nbsp; That's no die rolls to make that determination.That means, in the scenario of the unaware orcs in a closed room, the party opens the door and sees orcs.&nbsp; The DM says &quot;roll initiative&quot; and we all do.Then combat ensues, nobody is flat-footed, neither side.&nbsp; The fight goes until the orcs are dead (becauser we're PCs and almost always win).What's really going on is we're basically 2E converts.&nbsp; We're playing without the flat-footed rules.What flat-footed really means, for the beginning of the round, is that the rogue (guy with high dex) would have gotten an extra bonus to attack first by having everyone be easier to hit.If you're going to justify the rule, the rogue's lighting fast reflexes lets him get a quick stab, before anybody expected.&nbsp; It is a perk of being high-dex that you get this easier attack on the first round.&nbsp; And it helps, since a high-dex char usually has a worse attack score.From a real-world perspective, any sport person has experienced the &quot;first to move&quot; effect.&nbsp; Both sides are waiting for the moment, either a whistle, or just staring down the other side.&nbsp; And then one side moves.&nbsp; And for a moment, the other side is off guard.&nbsp; Once everythings in motion, it all works out, but for that first instant, the guy who went first has an advantage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Janx, post: 4971746, member: 8835"] I'm going to look at a different angle. Namely, what me and my friends commonly do, which seems to gloss over most of this nit-picking. This is under at least 3 different DMs, including one who only comes down once a year or so. (Meaning we have 2 groups who evolved to play it the same way). In most encounters, we've never applied the flat-footed penalty. It's like we forget about it. We also RARELY have a surprise round, if ever. We usually manage to convince the DM that we should have surprise, based on the in-game state. That's no die rolls to make that determination. That means, in the scenario of the unaware orcs in a closed room, the party opens the door and sees orcs. The DM says "roll initiative" and we all do. Then combat ensues, nobody is flat-footed, neither side. The fight goes until the orcs are dead (becauser we're PCs and almost always win). What's really going on is we're basically 2E converts. We're playing without the flat-footed rules. What flat-footed really means, for the beginning of the round, is that the rogue (guy with high dex) would have gotten an extra bonus to attack first by having everyone be easier to hit. If you're going to justify the rule, the rogue's lighting fast reflexes lets him get a quick stab, before anybody expected. It is a perk of being high-dex that you get this easier attack on the first round. And it helps, since a high-dex char usually has a worse attack score. From a real-world perspective, any sport person has experienced the "first to move" effect. Both sides are waiting for the moment, either a whistle, or just staring down the other side. And then one side moves. And for a moment, the other side is off guard. Once everythings in motion, it all works out, but for that first instant, the guy who went first has an advantage. [/QUOTE]

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