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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4971857" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yes, that's the heart of it.&nbsp; &nbsp; The problem with analogies is that you can use them to prove anything.&nbsp; Most people select an analogy with the purpose of proving a point they already believe and they force the analogy to conform to the point they are trying to prove.&nbsp; This isn't evidence - it's begging the question.&nbsp; Nevertheless, I'll try to show where your analogy goes wrong and I think I'll make some progress precisely because you are able to see how wrong your analogy is:Yes, but its also you misusing the rules when trying to describe the situation.Right.&nbsp; They aren't surprised, they just lost initiative.&nbsp; And while D&amp;D isn't really designed to handle the 10th or 20th of second intervals of football at the level of a deep simulation, essentially the problem is that they lost initiative badly because the defender anticipated the snap count really well and they in turn didn't explode out of their stance the way they are supposed to.It's not a very good illustration of the game condition of flat-footed though.&nbsp; There is however in football a pretty good illustration of what flat footed means, and that's when someone on the offence gets the snap count wrong and the ball is snapped while they are still anticipating additional time to pass.&nbsp; In that case, the offensive player is often really caught literally 'flat footed' by the defender because they haven't risen out of their stance and planted their feet properly, and when this happens it usually means that there will be a blown play.&nbsp; Flat-footed means in the D&amp;D context 'being surprised', which is pretty much what it means in the normal use of language.&nbsp; We can see this to be true because flat-footed is the condition you are in when you are surprised, and you remain that way until you get a chance to act, and whereever it is actually used in the game its almost always associated with some sort of surprise. All I've been saying is that sometimes just maybe people aren't surprised and are in fact readied and on gaurd.&nbsp; Is that so hard to believe?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4971857, member: 4937"] Yes, that's the heart of it. The problem with analogies is that you can use them to prove anything. Most people select an analogy with the purpose of proving a point they already believe and they force the analogy to conform to the point they are trying to prove. This isn't evidence - it's begging the question. Nevertheless, I'll try to show where your analogy goes wrong and I think I'll make some progress precisely because you are able to see how wrong your analogy is: Yes, but its also you misusing the rules when trying to describe the situation. Right. They aren't surprised, they just lost initiative. And while D&D isn't really designed to handle the 10th or 20th of second intervals of football at the level of a deep simulation, essentially the problem is that they lost initiative badly because the defender anticipated the snap count really well and they in turn didn't explode out of their stance the way they are supposed to. It's not a very good illustration of the game condition of flat-footed though. There is however in football a pretty good illustration of what flat footed means, and that's when someone on the offence gets the snap count wrong and the ball is snapped while they are still anticipating additional time to pass. In that case, the offensive player is often really caught literally 'flat footed' by the defender because they haven't risen out of their stance and planted their feet properly, and when this happens it usually means that there will be a blown play. Flat-footed means in the D&D context 'being surprised', which is pretty much what it means in the normal use of language. We can see this to be true because flat-footed is the condition you are in when you are surprised, and you remain that way until you get a chance to act, and whereever it is actually used in the game its almost always associated with some sort of surprise. All I've been saying is that sometimes just maybe people aren't surprised and are in fact readied and on gaurd. Is that so hard to believe? [/QUOTE]

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