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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4972328" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, good.  Because they've done alot of disputing of me so far.  The problem is not with the example I think, but some of the things that it implies.  The first is that you can take 'combat actions' outside of combat if by 'outside of combat you mean' rounds when no one is taking attack actions.  This shouldn't be that contriversial either, since the DMG provides an example of when you might want to do that, but it has been.The second is that you can be talking to the BBEG, win initiative, and have a reasonable expectation that even if you win initiative that the BBEG won't be flatfooted.  Conversely, and perhaps even more importantly, you can be talking to the BBEG, the BBEG will win initiative, and you won't be flatfooted.  We know that this is true because we just demonstrated that it was true.  No one in the conversation was flatfooted.  People have gotten very upset about that as well.For the very obvious reason that both sides prepared for hostilities.  The fact that both sides prepared for hostilities very drastically changed the tactical environment.With the natural result that every attack - even a meeting engagement - is in the form of an ambush with one side momentarily unprepared for the attack.  Not to sterotype you too much, but I'd also guess you generally only roll initiative when the parties are within charging distance and that you've never had a battle start at a distance of 400' or 600' (or more).  Moreover, I'd guess that most fights with NPC's are battles to the death, that there are fairly clearly lines drawn between who you fight and who you shouldn't, and that PC's rarely negotiate with characters 'that they should fight'.  Not to sterotype your DM too much, but I bet if you tried he'd be startled and confused and eventually a fight would break out anyway.  I say these things not with perfect certainty, but because I've seen the type on several occassions.Let's come back to that question in a bit.Absolutely.  Whatever I'd do in one case, I'd do in the other, because otherwise I'd be signalling to the players with a metagame action, "These are the people you should attack/not attack."  The potential confusion between bandits and the King's Huntsman was an issue I brought up right from the beginning.Let's back up a bit, because the impression I've got from alot of the pushback in this thread has been, "That Celebrim.  He's a RB DM and always trying to put the PC's down."  However, that's not at all true.What I didn't tell you about the bandits was they were all high level rogues and the EL was four higher than party level, and there was a very good chance of a player death or a TPK.  Now, if I didn't roll initiative when the Bandits where 300' away and waited instead for the first attack, it's quite possible that it wouldn't have occurred until the PC's were in sneak attack range and thus they would have been exposed to considerable sneak attack damage.  But, because I rolled initiative when the Bandits are 300' away, there is no danger that the PC's will be flatfooted when hostilities break out.Consider the alternative interpretation that some others in this thread have been using.DM: Ahead on the road you see a group of men on horseback riding out of the woods.  They are dressed in browns and greens and are lightly armored, but are armed with spears, swords and bows.  As you are observing them, they are clearly observing you and turn their horses in your direction.PC #1: I ready my bow in case any of them make a hostile move.DM: You can't do that.PC #1: Uhhh.. why not? DM: Well, that would be a combat action and we haven't rolled initiative yet.PC #1: Ok, can we roll initiative now?DM: No, because no one has yet taken a hostile action.PC #1: So you mean I can take no action to ready myself for combat so when your high level rogues get within 30' we'll still be flatfooted?DM: Yes.Now that would be ridiculous.</blockquote>

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