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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4972359" data-attributes="member: 4937">Right.&nbsp; Because you can still be surprised by something you didn't know was there, in which case all your preparation goes to not.&nbsp; But we haven't been arguing over what happens in a surprise round.&nbsp; We've been arguing about whether you can be prepared for battle when you are not surprised.&nbsp; You insist that its impossible.&nbsp; I insist that its possible.&nbsp; I've provided at least one example that proves its possible.&nbsp; You've spent the whole thread going through backflips claiming the whole thing is wrong because the DM has no right to declare initiative at that point.&nbsp; In a tournament situation using typical encounters, it almost always will be.&nbsp; If you are in a dungeon environment with static or semi-static set peice encounters with monsters that attack at the first oppurtunity and PC's that attack at the first oppurtunity, it will work the way you are used to every time.&nbsp; Then, because that's 'the way we've always done it', you get into a habit and you forget that there are other possibilities.&nbsp; Then because you normally play with people in the same boat, when someone comes along who has been playing a different way, you scream, &quot;You're doing it wrong!!!&nbsp; You are cheating rogues!!!&quot; etc.The biggest achilles heel of rogues is that too many things are immune to sneak attack.&nbsp; If it can be sneak attacked though, a decent rogue player is going to find a way.&nbsp; The second biggest problem with them is that like all martial classes, they really suffer compared to spellcasters at higher levels.&nbsp; There are other problems as well, but that's the subject of a different thread.&nbsp; However, in general, I've found rogues to be a popular and effective class.&nbsp; I didn't say that you said that.&nbsp; I was refering to this: &quot;you quick draw your dagger and slash his throat... even before he has a chance to raise his sword in defense&quot;&nbsp; Helplessly frozen in place.I figured.He is right.&nbsp; And leaving aside that by the common definition of the words no one can be both surprised and ready, I just demonstrated under the rules that he's right.&nbsp; Once you've prepared yourself for combat, you cannot be caught flatfooted by anything you are aware of.&nbsp; However, if he thought the rules said what you think they say, it's no wonder he thought the designers were idiots.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4972359, member: 4937"] Right. Because you can still be surprised by something you didn't know was there, in which case all your preparation goes to not. But we haven't been arguing over what happens in a surprise round. We've been arguing about whether you can be prepared for battle when you are not surprised. You insist that its impossible. I insist that its possible. I've provided at least one example that proves its possible. You've spent the whole thread going through backflips claiming the whole thing is wrong because the DM has no right to declare initiative at that point. In a tournament situation using typical encounters, it almost always will be. If you are in a dungeon environment with static or semi-static set peice encounters with monsters that attack at the first oppurtunity and PC's that attack at the first oppurtunity, it will work the way you are used to every time. Then, because that's 'the way we've always done it', you get into a habit and you forget that there are other possibilities. Then because you normally play with people in the same boat, when someone comes along who has been playing a different way, you scream, "You're doing it wrong!!! You are cheating rogues!!!" etc. The biggest achilles heel of rogues is that too many things are immune to sneak attack. If it can be sneak attacked though, a decent rogue player is going to find a way. The second biggest problem with them is that like all martial classes, they really suffer compared to spellcasters at higher levels. There are other problems as well, but that's the subject of a different thread. However, in general, I've found rogues to be a popular and effective class. I didn't say that you said that. I was refering to this: "you quick draw your dagger and slash his throat... even before he has a chance to raise his sword in defense" Helplessly frozen in place. I figured. He is right. And leaving aside that by the common definition of the words no one can be both surprised and ready, I just demonstrated under the rules that he's right. Once you've prepared yourself for combat, you cannot be caught flatfooted by anything you are aware of. However, if he thought the rules said what you think they say, it's no wonder he thought the designers were idiots. [/QUOTE]

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