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[Forked from Mearls] MMOs, virtual vs. imaginary worlds (reply to Umbran)
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 4937437" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>[FONT=&quot]Lots of good thoughts—I’ll do my best to reply to all of them. [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]</p><p> </p><p> [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]Good point. We already have passive versions of this with “gorror” movies (gore flicks). It is one thing getting a thrill from being scared (which is quite invigorating), another from watching human beings be mangled. I don’t get it, myself.[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]</p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]Yes, exactly. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between the rise of derivative media and that of immersive technologies. On the other hand, as movies have gotten more and more popular they have catered more and more to the “lowest common denominator.” There have always been bad movies, but it seems that there are less movies of depth and substance, at least in the big theaters. But the specific point of idea recycling is an important one and something I find disheartening, both as an occasional movie-goer and a creator/artist. For example, why did we need another iteration of Star Trek? Why can’t someone come up with a new franchise with fresh ideas? The bottom line is obvious: the Almighty Dollar is more assured in a Star Trek remake than in something new. But I also think there is something more going on, what you are pointing at.</p><p></p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]I think what you are pointing at here might be similar to what seems to obvious next revolution in RPGs and MMOs: an integration of the two, where the DM is able to “create” a MMO on the fly, or at least pre-program an adventure that the players can run through that is orchestrated by the DM and not the program itself. I have to admit the idea is alluring, although it doesn’t avoid “the problem of imagination” I’m so concerned about, but rather replaces it with computer simulation.</p><p></p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]On a sensory level, yes. But what about the internal experience? I for one disavow the Lockeian sentiment that our interior life is merely a reflection of, or reaction to, the sensory (I’m much more of a Romantic than an Empiricist). </p><p></p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]Fidelity only covers one slice of the pie, if you will. I would say that the “warmer tone” is separate from fidelity. What makes it pleasing? I would say something other than fidelity; the “warmth” isn’t merely nostalgiac, either (although probably is to some extent), but something more subtle, something more <em>human. </em>It is that digital vs. analog thing. More on this in my reply to amysrevenge below.[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]</p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]It is interesting to note that you here more stories of MMO players spending endless hours playing than tabletop RPGers. It would seem that the difficulty with RPGs has less to do with the amount of free time people have, and more to do with the ability to match up busy schedules. I also think this is somewhat a generational thing: the bulk of TTRPGers are 25-40+, and thus have careers and families to contend with, whereas MMOers tend to be younger and with less responsibilities.</p><p></p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]This cuts to the heart of the matter but I see this very differently. I would ask, why are paintings “more pleasant to look at” than a photograph? Is it the lack of accuracy? Maybe, but I would rather say that the lack of accuracy allows for something else to come through, something of the human soul—not only of the subject of the artwork, but the artist him or herself. I am not so sure that the photographer “enters into” the photo, at least not nearly as much.</p><p></p><p> [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]</p><p>I personally think they already have. </p><p></p><p>[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot]This is an interesting point, but I think it depends upon one’s temperament. In this regard RPGs are more akin to performance art; I assume that you probably would find acting or a music performance creatively unrewarding in the same manner. This may be why I enjoy world-building at least as much as actually playing: the world has a life of its own and exists outside of the game session, whereas the game itself, the adventure session, is a moment in time.[/FONT]</p><p> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 4937437, member: 59082"] [FONT="]Lots of good thoughts—I’ll do my best to reply to all of them. [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]Good point. We already have passive versions of this with “gorror” movies (gore flicks). It is one thing getting a thrill from being scared (which is quite invigorating), another from watching human beings be mangled. I don’t get it, myself.[/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]Yes, exactly. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between the rise of derivative media and that of immersive technologies. On the other hand, as movies have gotten more and more popular they have catered more and more to the “lowest common denominator.” There have always been bad movies, but it seems that there are less movies of depth and substance, at least in the big theaters. But the specific point of idea recycling is an important one and something I find disheartening, both as an occasional movie-goer and a creator/artist. For example, why did we need another iteration of Star Trek? Why can’t someone come up with a new franchise with fresh ideas? The bottom line is obvious: the Almighty Dollar is more assured in a Star Trek remake than in something new. But I also think there is something more going on, what you are pointing at. [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]I think what you are pointing at here might be similar to what seems to obvious next revolution in RPGs and MMOs: an integration of the two, where the DM is able to “create” a MMO on the fly, or at least pre-program an adventure that the players can run through that is orchestrated by the DM and not the program itself. I have to admit the idea is alluring, although it doesn’t avoid “the problem of imagination” I’m so concerned about, but rather replaces it with computer simulation. [/FONT] [FONT="]On a sensory level, yes. But what about the internal experience? I for one disavow the Lockeian sentiment that our interior life is merely a reflection of, or reaction to, the sensory (I’m much more of a Romantic than an Empiricist). [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]Fidelity only covers one slice of the pie, if you will. I would say that the “warmer tone” is separate from fidelity. What makes it pleasing? I would say something other than fidelity; the “warmth” isn’t merely nostalgiac, either (although probably is to some extent), but something more subtle, something more [I]human. [/I]It is that digital vs. analog thing. More on this in my reply to amysrevenge below.[/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]It is interesting to note that you here more stories of MMO players spending endless hours playing than tabletop RPGers. It would seem that the difficulty with RPGs has less to do with the amount of free time people have, and more to do with the ability to match up busy schedules. I also think this is somewhat a generational thing: the bulk of TTRPGers are 25-40+, and thus have careers and families to contend with, whereas MMOers tend to be younger and with less responsibilities. [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]This cuts to the heart of the matter but I see this very differently. I would ask, why are paintings “more pleasant to look at” than a photograph? Is it the lack of accuracy? Maybe, but I would rather say that the lack of accuracy allows for something else to come through, something of the human soul—not only of the subject of the artwork, but the artist him or herself. I am not so sure that the photographer “enters into” the photo, at least not nearly as much. [/FONT] [FONT="] I personally think they already have. [/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [FONT="]This is an interesting point, but I think it depends upon one’s temperament. In this regard RPGs are more akin to performance art; I assume that you probably would find acting or a music performance creatively unrewarding in the same manner. This may be why I enjoy world-building at least as much as actually playing: the world has a life of its own and exists outside of the game session, whereas the game itself, the adventure session, is a moment in time.[/FONT] [FONT="] [/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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