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[Forked from Mearls] MMOs, virtual vs. imaginary worlds (reply to Umbran)
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<blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 4951154" data-attributes="member: 54707"><p>I don't know Huss, in this particular instance this seems kinda anecdotal to me. I personally wouldn't play in any game (of any type) where I lacked basic information on the other player's characters because to me it would be a game survival issue. Without accurate information then you cannot assist your compatriots or make valid suggestions for action, etc. I personally would not consider fun to be so over-riding that it limits every other aspect of the game, like basic expectations about character capabilities. Lacking such information would be the very opposite of fun to me, especially in a highly interactive effort like a RPG. Because you rely upon others in game. Then again information is my game, so to speak, both in-game and in real life. I think this is simply a personality issue. Some might be happy to engage in such play for no other reason than fun (however defined) I would not and I know many of my buddies would not. They'd ask questions and expect answers to things they didn't know but naturally expected to find out. They'd gather information and store it for practical use.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That may be true, but then again a campaign in a RPG is often a not-for-profit effort by a single initial (unless you specifically mean commercially produced campaign modules, that's a different story, though I have seen some professionally produced campaign books that are quite extensive), with correspondingly limited time and resources. A video game campaign is far more often than not a for-profit enterprise with comparatively large resources. And time and effort is sally distributed over a "team" of creative personnel, yielding a real dramaturge in creating large amounts of content relatively quickly. I'm not sure though that qualitative distinctions can be drawn simply from facts such as "bigger or more expansive." You can have a huge load of crap, and a small dose of very concentrated genius. Then again the obverse or reverse can occur. To me personally though the real test would be the quality of the imaginative enterprise versus the quantity. Of course I'm not saying that was your total implication.</p><p></p><p>Some video and computer and VR games are of very high quality as well as of impressive content loads. Some are definitely not, or are of high quality but are short, some are of low quality but have huge detail of content. But one other thing to consider. When undertaking an electronic game one usually is not slowed down by group effort or extended periods of group-consideration. In RPGs a party of different individuals may take a long time to make a decision whereas a single electronic game player makes a very quick, unadulterated response (indeed games are often structured to intentionally force quick decision making based upon incomplete information or seemingly unsure circumstances, something that many RPG players would argue over in detail so as to make the best decision for the entire group). Or even if he is playing with a team the group choices are usually very limited as to possible action. Most electronic games lack the fluidity of being able to do <em>"whatever you want."</em> You cannot for instance step off the pre-programmed structure, because there is nothing outside the pre-programmed structure, therefore ad hoc activity is really more illusion than reality. You cannot really make up anything on the spot. The choices are usually pretty narrow as to the range of possible actions. That may eventually change, but right now progression paths are relatively thin.</p><p></p><p>I personally would say this then. Electronic/information system games may, or may not, inspire imaginative creativity both in design and play for individual players. RPGs may, or may not, inspire imaginative creativity in both design and play for groups (in most standard gaming situations).</p><p></p><p>But basically those two different forms are geared towards different objectives when it comes to how they engage and employ the imagination.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jack7, post: 4951154, member: 54707"] I don't know Huss, in this particular instance this seems kinda anecdotal to me. I personally wouldn't play in any game (of any type) where I lacked basic information on the other player's characters because to me it would be a game survival issue. Without accurate information then you cannot assist your compatriots or make valid suggestions for action, etc. I personally would not consider fun to be so over-riding that it limits every other aspect of the game, like basic expectations about character capabilities. Lacking such information would be the very opposite of fun to me, especially in a highly interactive effort like a RPG. Because you rely upon others in game. Then again information is my game, so to speak, both in-game and in real life. I think this is simply a personality issue. Some might be happy to engage in such play for no other reason than fun (however defined) I would not and I know many of my buddies would not. They'd ask questions and expect answers to things they didn't know but naturally expected to find out. They'd gather information and store it for practical use. That may be true, but then again a campaign in a RPG is often a not-for-profit effort by a single initial (unless you specifically mean commercially produced campaign modules, that's a different story, though I have seen some professionally produced campaign books that are quite extensive), with correspondingly limited time and resources. A video game campaign is far more often than not a for-profit enterprise with comparatively large resources. And time and effort is sally distributed over a "team" of creative personnel, yielding a real dramaturge in creating large amounts of content relatively quickly. I'm not sure though that qualitative distinctions can be drawn simply from facts such as "bigger or more expansive." You can have a huge load of crap, and a small dose of very concentrated genius. Then again the obverse or reverse can occur. To me personally though the real test would be the quality of the imaginative enterprise versus the quantity. Of course I'm not saying that was your total implication. Some video and computer and VR games are of very high quality as well as of impressive content loads. Some are definitely not, or are of high quality but are short, some are of low quality but have huge detail of content. But one other thing to consider. When undertaking an electronic game one usually is not slowed down by group effort or extended periods of group-consideration. In RPGs a party of different individuals may take a long time to make a decision whereas a single electronic game player makes a very quick, unadulterated response (indeed games are often structured to intentionally force quick decision making based upon incomplete information or seemingly unsure circumstances, something that many RPG players would argue over in detail so as to make the best decision for the entire group). Or even if he is playing with a team the group choices are usually very limited as to possible action. Most electronic games lack the fluidity of being able to do [I]"whatever you want."[/I] You cannot for instance step off the pre-programmed structure, because there is nothing outside the pre-programmed structure, therefore ad hoc activity is really more illusion than reality. You cannot really make up anything on the spot. The choices are usually pretty narrow as to the range of possible actions. That may eventually change, but right now progression paths are relatively thin. I personally would say this then. Electronic/information system games may, or may not, inspire imaginative creativity both in design and play for individual players. RPGs may, or may not, inspire imaginative creativity in both design and play for groups (in most standard gaming situations). But basically those two different forms are geared towards different objectives when it comes to how they engage and employ the imagination. [/QUOTE]
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