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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5104434" data-attributes="member: 5834">So designing encounters to be challenging is "wrong"? There really is no way to balance that out when it comes to the rogue most of the time. Even James Jacobs states that if you want to make a monster damage dealer, you make a +20 BAB class, not a rogue. I'm quite sure he understands the disparity in hit rolls is the prime reason the rogue can't deal as much as a fighter or paladin or what not. It certainly isn't because of sneak attack, which is very effective when you can use it.What do you mean "focused on hitting well"? Every fighter gets what I listed as bonuses to hit.  I doubt any do not take weapon spec and weapon focus given the number of feats they get. Same with the paladin. If it's evil, they get their Charisma bonus on top of everything else. They almost all get to power up their weapon unless they take teh mount.There is no getting around the fact that a +20 BAB class will always have +5 to usually +10 or more BAB higher than the rogue.If you don't want your +20 BAB class to rip apart the monster they're fighting long before anyone else gets to do much, then you gotta boost that AC. Sure you can occasionally use a movement ability to keep the +20 BAB at bay or use a hold spell and hope the cleric isn't ready, but sometimes you want the creatures to be able to go toe to toe with the PC fighter and you have to boost AC to do that.I guess it's something we'll have to take care of ourselves as I can see that most people don't run campaigns as lethal as ours. If you did, you would understand what I'm talking about. Though I'd bet money the rogue is one of the least effective characters in end module encounters for most posting here as well, but they just don't want to admit to it. Low will save against a dragon with dragon fear? C'mon, they barely make it most of the time. Target them with a panic effect or a hold spell, see you later rogue, you're out of it.And our DM prepares well for the casters too. So the save or x spells aren't likely to end the encounter either. It's lucky melee crits that mess him up the most because he can't account for those every encounter. He wants his end game encounters to make you feel like you walked within a hair's breadth of death to win. He does that by taking into account the characters' abilities. It's real hard to balance encounters for a rogue given their inherent weaknesses.So you DMs on here really don't balance the encounters based on your party's abilities? You just let an optimized fighter walk all over your end module encounters while he is hasted and supported by the cleric? Or are your clerics not well prepared to deal with holds and your wizards more interested in blasting than casting support spells?I always wonder how other DMs run the game. Sometimes I think most don't care if their players walk on the end module encounters. And I know our DM would have little fun if the party walked over everything they've made. It's led to alot of dead parties, but you do feel like you won something.And the rogue has always been that red-headed step-child of a class because he doesn't have anything standout but sneak attack when it comes to a fight. And if he can't hit or maneuver well in the case of huge creatures like dragons, he is out of luck when it comes to battle...almost useless.Also, have any of you seen what an archer can do yet? They get up to 6 attacks a round with no haste and x4 crit at lvl 20. You have any idea what kind of damage output that is?I guess I should have also asked what is your experience? What are the highest level campaigns you have played in? This rogue issue is for rogues past lvl 8 or so and the disparity and balance issues only become worse as the fighter, paladin, ranger, and barbarian get stronger while the rogue stays fairly pat with his to hit rolls since he has no innate hit boosting abilities.</blockquote>

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