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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Votan" data-source="post: 5104473" data-attributes="member: 18680">In Core rules, 17th level (as DM).  With nearly 50% of the party as rogues: 12th level.  [So designing encounters to be challenging is "wrong"? ]Nobody is saying this (or at least I am not).  What I am reacting to is that boosting Monster traits to make an encounter challenging is a delicate art.  In the game that ended at 17th level, my trick was hit points (generally multiple by 1.5 or 2.0).  This tended to make the Ranger feel under-appreciated (while the rogue and the paladin did fine).It is perfectly okay for the rogue to lag a bit in combat if they add a lot with skills.  This tends to matter less at higher levels when the  cleric and wizard were doing a lot of the utility options too.  So I am not (and doubt anybody else) is contesting that you should make encounters challenging.  It's more that the high AC approach to beefing up critters (note your examples are above any monster in the SRD) may result in some classes having differential impact.  If you really are going to continue with this approach then, getting constructive for a moment, giving rogues full BAB may be okay.  I can see some edge effects with mutli-classing that will not be pleasant but, under this style of game, that might be a sane adaption of the class.  If you have me as a DM, then the higher HP totals will make the rogue work just fine but a 3.5 psion would be quite put out.  This is the wonderful thing about D&D (or Pathfinder) -- every table is a bit different and there are a thousand cool variations.  If you like the style that has evolved at your table but find the rogue isn't fitting in then feel free to improvise.  This goes double if you have a player who likes rogues and is feeling left out.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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