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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6315268" data-attributes="member: 87792">The only shoddy and lazy work I see is the idea&nbsp; that because people can do something we should ignore all the rules&nbsp; around it.&nbsp; It is, to me, shoddy and lazy work to say that buildings&nbsp; would automatically be built so the inhabitants would need a five minute&nbsp; rest just to avoid climbing a single flight of stairs.That depends what the designers have actually done.&nbsp; The ideas I am rolling my eyes at areyours.&nbsp; The idea of an Eladrin city without stairs is ridiculous.And my conclusion is that unless the vault&nbsp; specifically says that the keyhole reaches right the way through it&nbsp; doesn't.&nbsp; On my keyring there are currently six keys.&nbsp; Only one of them&nbsp; (the gate key) lets you see right the way through.&nbsp; So the mere presence&nbsp; of a key does not imply a keyhole that can be seen right through.Indeed&nbsp; the presence of a keyhole that reaches right the way through the door&nbsp; implies something very specific.&nbsp; It implies that you expect people to&nbsp; use keys on both sides of the door - and normally that you expect people&nbsp; to leave the door unlocked while it is in use.&nbsp; (Doors onto back&nbsp; gardens being the obvious case here).&nbsp; It implies that most of the time&nbsp; there is little difference between the two sides of the door.&nbsp; A lock&nbsp; that is generally intended to keep people out only needs to be opened&nbsp; from the outside so there is no keyhole needed on the inside; you just&nbsp; turn it.&nbsp; (This sort of door normally has a wedge shaped rather than&nbsp; flat bolt so if the door is closed it will lock automatically unless&nbsp; someone latches the bolt).And there is literally no reason a&nbsp; vault key should ever let you see through it.&nbsp; I've used the Wikipedia&nbsp; picture of a bank vault below - and as should be obvious you can't&nbsp; actually see through the keyhole.&nbsp; Indeed I'm trying to see one <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;hs=Kcq&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&amp;tbm=isch&amp;q=vault+door&amp;revid=213936932&amp;biw=1280&amp;bih=860&amp;dpr=1" target="_blank">vault door</a> on google image search where you can see through the keyhole.[ATTACH]62179[/ATTACH]&nbsp;To me the blame for that is squarely on the head of the DM.&nbsp; As the&nbsp; Google Image Search shows, by default bank doors are solid objects where&nbsp; you can not see through the keyhole.&nbsp; You see to a metal panel at the&nbsp; back, not into the vault.&nbsp; By default you would therefore expect fantasy&nbsp; bank doors to be the same way.Unless the writer deliberately&nbsp; wrote the vault doors as having a keyhole, your DM changed an assumption&nbsp; from the real world (that vault doors and many other lockable doors&nbsp; have keyholes only on one side).&nbsp; Your DM changed things in this manner&nbsp; despite this breaking the setting - and it's the module writer you&nbsp; accuse of shoddy and lazy work?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6315268, member: 87792"] The only shoddy and lazy work I see is the idea that because people can do something we should ignore all the rules around it. It is, to me, shoddy and lazy work to say that buildings would automatically be built so the inhabitants would need a five minute rest just to avoid climbing a single flight of stairs. That depends what the designers have actually done. The ideas I am rolling my eyes at areyours. The idea of an Eladrin city without stairs is ridiculous. And my conclusion is that unless the vault specifically says that the keyhole reaches right the way through it doesn't. On my keyring there are currently six keys. Only one of them (the gate key) lets you see right the way through. So the mere presence of a key does not imply a keyhole that can be seen right through. Indeed the presence of a keyhole that reaches right the way through the door implies something very specific. It implies that you expect people to use keys on both sides of the door - and normally that you expect people to leave the door unlocked while it is in use. (Doors onto back gardens being the obvious case here). It implies that most of the time there is little difference between the two sides of the door. A lock that is generally intended to keep people out only needs to be opened from the outside so there is no keyhole needed on the inside; you just turn it. (This sort of door normally has a wedge shaped rather than flat bolt so if the door is closed it will lock automatically unless someone latches the bolt). And there is literally no reason a vault key should ever let you see through it. I've used the Wikipedia picture of a bank vault below - and as should be obvious you can't actually see through the keyhole. Indeed I'm trying to see one [URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Kcq&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&tbm=isch&q=vault+door&revid=213936932&biw=1280&bih=860&dpr=1"]vault door[/URL] on google image search where you [I]can[/I] see through the keyhole. [ATTACH=CONFIG]62179._xfImport[/ATTACH] To me the blame for that is squarely on the head of the DM. As the Google Image Search shows, by default bank doors are solid objects where you can not see through the keyhole. You see to a metal panel at the back, not into the vault. By default you would therefore expect fantasy bank doors to be the same way. Unless the writer deliberately wrote the vault doors as having a keyhole, your DM changed an assumption from the real world (that vault doors and many other lockable doors have keyholes only on one side). Your DM changed things in this manner despite this breaking the setting - and it's the module writer you accuse of shoddy and lazy work? [/QUOTE]

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