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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6315779" data-attributes="member: 87792">You might want to read that word again.&nbsp; BadwrongFun.&nbsp; The point of this thread is that people were having BadWrongNOTFun&nbsp; because Eladrin teleportation made worldbuilding improbable.&nbsp; On a&nbsp; different thread, one that did not start out about the claim that Blink&nbsp; Elves ruined worldbuilding and forced mental gymnastics the response&nbsp; would be very different.&nbsp; But this thread is about how 4E trashes&nbsp; worldbuilding (or doesn't).If you want to make your Eladrin into&nbsp; scatological jerks by &quot;birding&quot; no one is stopping you.&nbsp; Any more than&nbsp; they are stopping you having people climbing trees and doing this&nbsp; (although I don't want that form of watersports in my game, thank you&nbsp; and would rather it not be associated with the hobby).&nbsp; And when you&nbsp; personally are saying that <a href="https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0302/36/1392404128207.png" target="_blank">4E enables this specific DM</a> in a thread that was set up about statements that unjustifiably run down 4E it is very hard to read that as a good faith &quot;Isn't this thing cool&quot; post rather than a &quot;4e sucks&quot; post.And&nbsp; had this thread started &quot;Hey, Cool!&nbsp; I've just build a wonderful&nbsp; Eladrin city full of gleaming spires and mystical architecture based on&nbsp; Eladrin Teleportation!&nbsp; What else have you done with it?&quot; things would&nbsp; be very different.Once again you&nbsp; are creating a straw man for the purpose of beating on it.&nbsp; The issue&nbsp; isn't people who don't like Eladrin teleportation.&nbsp; It's people who&nbsp; don't like their imagined version of Eladrin teleportation that does not match what happens under the actual rules of 4e.&nbsp; Have&nbsp; you been reading this thread?&nbsp; Because no one, so far as I know has been&nbsp; saying &quot;You must have Eladrin.&quot;&nbsp; What's being said is &quot;If you are going&nbsp; to object to the worldbuilding issues Eladrin create, at least be honest about them.&nbsp; Don't make up stuff.&quot;Your imagination.&nbsp; Nothing more, nothing less.When&nbsp; @DDNextFan claimed there was nothing preventing people teleporting&nbsp; through vault doors because they could look through the keyhole.&nbsp; There&nbsp; are plenty of other ways of dealing with this - but the simplest is to&nbsp; use actual vault doors rather than stick keyholes right the way through&nbsp; them.No one is saying it isn't.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is you personally misreading the thread.&nbsp; It's OK to not like&nbsp; Eladrin teleportation.&nbsp; What's not OK is to blame the system for your&nbsp; misunderstanding of Eladrin Teleportation.Once again, I do not believe anyone is doing this.&nbsp;&nbsp; What they are being told is that saying you dislike bunnies because&nbsp; they are four legged carnivores with long snouts and canine teeth is&nbsp; silly.&nbsp; And that bunnies are a different animal - it's possible to&nbsp; object to them (and for good reason) - but if you can't tell a bunny&nbsp; from a wolf then the fault isn't that of the bunny.No one is disputing this.&nbsp; What is being complained about is once again when people have BadWrongNOTFun and blame it on the system.Basic civility.&nbsp;&nbsp; Something that ENWorld frequently has problems with - and why the&nbsp; anti-edition warring policy of ENWorld has been largely toothless.&nbsp; Making&nbsp; up nonsense about a game, insisting in the face of the rules of that&nbsp; game that your interpretation of the rules is correct, and then trashing&nbsp; the game based not on the actual game but on the version that you have&nbsp; made up is probably the single most common form of edition warring.&nbsp; It&nbsp; is also, at least to me, one of the most obnoxious because people start to believe such myths.To&nbsp; me the statement &quot;You are free to your own opinions.&nbsp; You are not free&nbsp; to your own facts.&quot; is fundamental to discourse because without it there&nbsp; is no common ground.&nbsp; Making stuff up to castigate things you dislike&nbsp; is far worse than ad hominem attacks.&nbsp; Ad hominem you can ignore.&nbsp; But&nbsp; cleaning up misconceptions takes an order of magnitude longer than&nbsp; spreading them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6315779, member: 87792"] You might want to read that word again. BadwrongFun. The point of this thread is that people were having BadWrong[U][B]NOT[/B][/U]Fun because Eladrin teleportation made worldbuilding improbable. On a different thread, one that did not start out about the claim that Blink Elves ruined worldbuilding and forced mental gymnastics the response would be very different. But this thread is about how 4E trashes worldbuilding (or doesn't). If you want to make your Eladrin into scatological jerks by "birding" no one is stopping you. Any more than they are stopping you having people climbing trees and doing this (although I don't want that form of watersports in my game, thank you and would rather it not be associated with the hobby). And when you personally are saying that [URL="https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0302/36/1392404128207.png"]4E enables this specific DM[/URL] in a thread that was set up about statements that unjustifiably run down 4E it is [I]very[/I] hard to read that as a good faith "Isn't this thing cool" post rather than a "4e sucks" post. And had this thread started "Hey, Cool! I've just build a wonderful Eladrin city full of gleaming spires and mystical architecture based on Eladrin Teleportation! What else have you done with it?" things would be very different. Once again you are creating a straw man for the purpose of beating on it. The issue isn't people who don't like Eladrin teleportation. It's people who don't like [I]their imagined version of Eladrin teleportation that does not match what happens under the actual rules of 4e[/I]. Have you been reading this thread? Because no one, so far as I know has been saying "You must have Eladrin." What's being said is "If you are going to [I]object[/I] to the worldbuilding issues Eladrin create, at least be honest about them. Don't make up stuff." Your imagination. Nothing more, nothing less. When @DDNextFan claimed there was nothing preventing people teleporting through vault doors because they could look through the keyhole. There are plenty of other ways of dealing with this - but the simplest is to use actual vault doors rather than stick keyholes right the way through them. [I]No one is saying it isn't[/I]. This is you personally misreading the thread. It's OK to not like Eladrin teleportation. What's not OK is to blame the system for your misunderstanding of Eladrin Teleportation. Once again, [I]I do not believe anyone is doing this.[/I] What they are being told is that saying you dislike bunnies because they are four legged carnivores with long snouts and canine teeth is silly. And that bunnies are a different animal - it's possible to object to them (and for good reason) - but if you can't tell a bunny from a wolf then the fault isn't that of the bunny. No one is disputing this. What is being complained about is once again when people have BadWrong[B][U]NOT[/U][/B]Fun and blame it on the system. Basic civility. Something that ENWorld frequently has problems with - and why the anti-edition warring policy of ENWorld has been largely toothless. Making up nonsense about a game, insisting in the face of the rules of that game that your interpretation of the rules is correct, and then trashing the game based not on the actual game but on the version that you have made up is probably the single most common form of edition warring. It is also, at least to me, one of the most obnoxious because people start to believe such myths. To me the statement "You are free to your own opinions. You are not free to your own facts." is fundamental to discourse because without it there is no common ground. Making stuff up to castigate things you dislike is far worse than ad hominem attacks. Ad hominem you can ignore. But cleaning up misconceptions takes an order of magnitude longer than spreading them. [/QUOTE]

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