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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DDNFan" data-source="post: 6315857" data-attributes="member: 6776483">Dude, it was three years ago, I don't remember all the eyeball rolling specifics, but there were plenty. We lost all immersion. This is the last thing I'm going to write on this topic, except to say that if a group of smart players thinks an adventure sucks in the believability department, you cannot blame them for having poor imagination to rationalize those problems away. That's dismissive and frankly, condescending. That's not what we pay adventure designers for. We don't want to second guess everything, or ask ourselves why they designed this city or town that seems inappropriate for the race that's supposed to inhabit it, to the extent that it makes us wonder not only why we keep playing that adventure, but the entire game. It was a string of bad adventures with terrible plot holes from the start. Even the most ardent 4th ed fans admit their adventures sucked. This is just the continuation of the suckyness.Calling people stupid or unimaginative instead of placing the blame where it lies, in the adventure designers, is just another example of "you're playing the game wrong / understanding it wrong so it's your fault if you didn't have any fun". That is a very common refrain around these parts, and you hear it in rules discussions too. It's not a serious argument. The fault lies with the designers, not the customers. They made a substandard product that resulted in us not only quitting that adventure, but pushed us over the top to never again touch 4th edition ever again. We can't and don't blame just that one paragon setting for doing that, the rules and the shoddy adventures leading up to it definitely helped, but it was the last straw and no, I meant that there were keyholes and blink entry spots everywhere, not the opposite. I lock my door when I go to the corner store, and this city was the equivalent of everyone leaving all their prized possessions out in the open. Our rogue had a field day. It was not a challenge, so much so that it was like shooting fish in a barrell. It was full of fail. I'm not going to say it again, it's my opinion and it's just as valid as yours. Don't tell me my imagination is lacking, it's more that I just have limited patience for rationalizing away other people's mediocre work that we paid good money for and invested a lot of time in, for a very low return on our investment. When we find adventures impossible to believe or lack immersion or credibility, that impacts our fun in a negative way. We pay Wizards to make adventures for us that are fun to us. Spending our time rationalizing their lazy work that we gave good money for, and made us repeatedly frustrated after we gave it so many chances, is not our idea of fun. Maybe it's yours, I don't know. But I've heard it repeated many times that the only valid reason to hate the 4th edition adventures or even rules is because of our limited intellect or imaginations, and that is pure BS.</blockquote>

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