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Message: <blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7141988" data-attributes="member: 97077">I think inherent in your view of the "middle path" though is the presupposition that the players get to choose to roll the dice. They don't. A player may only describe what they want to do and then the DM takes it from there. So if you take players choosing to make ability checks off the table, that deals with a large part of your concerns about inconsistency. After two editions of D&D where the player is encouraged to ask to make skill checks, this admittedly takes some training. But it is the way of things according to my reading of the D&D 5e rules. A lot of issues simply go away when changing over to this paradigm.The remaining part comes down to how the DM describes the environment. In Step 1 of the basic conversation of the game, the DM frames the scene and telegraphs the basic scope of options. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, "you will have framed the scene sufficiently that automatic failure won't be much of a surprise to the players, provided they are paying attention to and immersing themselves in your world." The latter bit is of particular note because it's sort of a self-reinforcing loop. As the DMG points out, the "middle path" encourages the players to strike a balance between relying on their mechanics and paying attention to the DM's world. In my view, a player paying attention to what you stated about the NPC guards and the rest of the surrounding context (and knowing players don't get to decide to roll dice) would likely (1) not try to intimidate them into stepping aside or (2) not be surprised if they tried and auto-failed.*Your original post and your comment about the dice being something a player cannot argue against, I'm reminded of the game I'm in that I mentioned in an earlier post. In that game, they are pretty much in the "Rolling With It" mode and there's often tension between the DM and players or less than stellar outcomes due to players trying to force die rolls. While all of them do it, there's a player in particular that tries to shoehorn Stealth checks into basically everything because his character is built around that. This frustrates the DM who then ends up going down the same road you did. In part, this is why I don't think the undesirable outcome you describe was all on you. "Playstyle" had much to do with it, the lion's share even, so far as I can tell. (As another aside regarding this game, I never ever ask to make an ability check as a player. I've noticed I'm about 50% more successful than the rest of the players in that game. The d20 is not a player's friend!)* Here's something else that's neat: At some point, players may start to see ability checks as tantamount to failure. That's what happens in my own games - few are eager to roll the dice since automatic success is more desirable. The DM asking you to roll means you fell short. Therefore, what you'll tend to see is players fishing for Inspiration a lot by playing to personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws. They want to keep this in the holster for those few times they have to roll. The net result is that players are portraying their characters consistent with their established characterization which is a pretty good result in my view!</blockquote>

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