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Forked - Level-Based Systems and Non-Heroic PCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 5664492" data-attributes="member: 54846"><p>No, again I said that the difference is tone, risk and scale. Are the skeletons attacking a village? That's fine by me. Is it a few skeletons hanging around a dungeon? Meh. Are the rats overrunning a farmhouse and there's a little girl in the 2nd story window unable to escape as hundreds of rats swarm up the stairs? That's great. Are they just in a dungeon chewing on food and attacking when disturbed? Meh.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let me give you a few examples from the few 1st level adventures I just looked through.</p><p></p><p>The Sunless Citadel's <em>first encounter</em> is with 3 dire rats who are just hanging around the dungeon's opening. Later there are dire rats hiding in refuse piles and cave rats, and more rats later on. As well as a hidden room that has skeletons just hanging around inside. </p><p></p><p>Pathfinder's "Crown of the Kobold King", the adventure is all good and heroic - but here we have dire rats just sitting in dungeon room minding their own business, the PCs barge in, the rats attack.</p><p></p><p>That's a good comparison 1st level pcs and 15th level PCs. You're right, 15th level PCs would kill rats and skeletons trying to hurt people. But, you wouldn't actually run the numbers. You wouldn't roll to-hit for a 15th level PC to kill rats and skeletons - you just assume they do because they're not a challenge and you don't want to waste time rolling it. Like saving a kitten from a tree, it's something a good person would <em>do</em>, but you wouldn't dwell on the success of it because hey it's a freaking kitten in a tree, we don't need to roll multiple climb checks, just handwave it and move along.</p><p></p><p><strong>Set aside</strong> the "Hey they're attacking innocent people" angle (because I've rarely if <em>ever</em> seen that's the case with rats and skeletons), and just put them in a room in a dungeon. Now tell me how awesome it is to fight them. And yet rats and skeletons are a "challenge" to 1st level PCs. They are Legitimate threats and posed as such to kids poking through a crypt. I just find that insulting. I use rats and skeletons as a bit of a hyperbolic example, but it invokes the feeling of fighting bugs because you're not good enough to face any real threat, go grind until you're a higher level.</p><p></p><p>In one of Paizo's Rise of the Runelords adventures (I think 5?) the PCs are about 14th level, and they are infiltrating a library where an <em>army of giants</em> are camped outside. Inside, they come across a room with some CR 5 ogres. The fight is played for laughs - the ogres try to push the PCs into mud because they think it's funny, and pose no real threat to the PCs because they simply can't touch them. It's not dangerous, it's just the PCs squishing some bugs that potentially <em>could</em> harm someone much, much lower level than them, but who <em>aren't</em>. <strong>That</strong> to me is killing rats and skeletons.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rechan, post: 5664492, member: 54846"] No, again I said that the difference is tone, risk and scale. Are the skeletons attacking a village? That's fine by me. Is it a few skeletons hanging around a dungeon? Meh. Are the rats overrunning a farmhouse and there's a little girl in the 2nd story window unable to escape as hundreds of rats swarm up the stairs? That's great. Are they just in a dungeon chewing on food and attacking when disturbed? Meh. Let me give you a few examples from the few 1st level adventures I just looked through. The Sunless Citadel's [I]first encounter[/I] is with 3 dire rats who are just hanging around the dungeon's opening. Later there are dire rats hiding in refuse piles and cave rats, and more rats later on. As well as a hidden room that has skeletons just hanging around inside. Pathfinder's "Crown of the Kobold King", the adventure is all good and heroic - but here we have dire rats just sitting in dungeon room minding their own business, the PCs barge in, the rats attack. That's a good comparison 1st level pcs and 15th level PCs. You're right, 15th level PCs would kill rats and skeletons trying to hurt people. But, you wouldn't actually run the numbers. You wouldn't roll to-hit for a 15th level PC to kill rats and skeletons - you just assume they do because they're not a challenge and you don't want to waste time rolling it. Like saving a kitten from a tree, it's something a good person would [I]do[/I], but you wouldn't dwell on the success of it because hey it's a freaking kitten in a tree, we don't need to roll multiple climb checks, just handwave it and move along. [B]Set aside[/B] the "Hey they're attacking innocent people" angle (because I've rarely if [I]ever[/I] seen that's the case with rats and skeletons), and just put them in a room in a dungeon. Now tell me how awesome it is to fight them. And yet rats and skeletons are a "challenge" to 1st level PCs. They are Legitimate threats and posed as such to kids poking through a crypt. I just find that insulting. I use rats and skeletons as a bit of a hyperbolic example, but it invokes the feeling of fighting bugs because you're not good enough to face any real threat, go grind until you're a higher level. In one of Paizo's Rise of the Runelords adventures (I think 5?) the PCs are about 14th level, and they are infiltrating a library where an [I]army of giants[/I] are camped outside. Inside, they come across a room with some CR 5 ogres. The fight is played for laughs - the ogres try to push the PCs into mud because they think it's funny, and pose no real threat to the PCs because they simply can't touch them. It's not dangerous, it's just the PCs squishing some bugs that potentially [I]could[/I] harm someone much, much lower level than them, but who [I]aren't[/I]. [B]That[/B] to me is killing rats and skeletons. [/QUOTE]
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