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<blockquote data-quote="Gradine" data-source="post: 5249455" data-attributes="member: 57112">Please, let's not resort to personal attacks here. There's a huge difference between &quot;You are a misogynist&quot; and &quot;That thing you said is misogynistic.&quot; One focuses on intent, the other on action; the former cannot be shown, the latter can. Preferably, neither should be really necessary in this thread.This thread is about D&amp;D artwork, specifically 4e but I guess really any fantasy artwork is up for grabs. If a particular piece of artwork is misogynistic, or if someone is requesting artwork that sounds misogynistic, then by all means, that's a conversation worth having. &quot;That artwork you seem to enjoy or really want to make a comeback is actually really demeaning&quot; is a respectful way to carry about a conversation, &quot;Well then you're just a misogynist&quot; pretty much closes the door.I think we're both arguing the same thing here, and I respect the position you're coming from. In my own experiences, however, even in the face of what might appear obvious, up to and including <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial" target="_blank">Suspiciously Specific Denials</a>, the indirect and respectful approach is more less like to shut people (and threads) down, and far more likely to make headway. Which ultimately, I hope would be the goal.Of course, the &quot;real life social justice education&quot; that makes up a large part of my work is a hell of a lot different &quot;arguments on the internet&quot;, so I may be engaging in wishful thinking here. Still, it'd be nice if the thread were last long enough to move on from whether said D&amp;D artwork is misogynistic and on to whether said D&amp;D artwork is interesting.Of course, feel free to take all that with a grain of salt. As a male, I have the privilege to not feel personally offended by misogyny.But to respond to what you are responding to; even if a demeaning trope is still accepted by the wider audience (and I would argue that it is no longer), does not make it any less demeaning. The best we can hope for, in that instance, is that the particular media we enjoy don't enjoy in such low-brow behavior. That Wizards has, by and large, avoided such a trope deserves to be commended, not lambasted.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gradine, post: 5249455, member: 57112"] Please, let's not resort to personal attacks here. There's a huge difference between "You are a misogynist" and "That thing you said is misogynistic." One focuses on intent, the other on action; the former cannot be shown, the latter can. Preferably, neither should be really necessary in this thread. This thread is about D&D artwork, specifically 4e but I guess really any fantasy artwork is up for grabs. If a particular piece of artwork is misogynistic, or if someone is requesting artwork that sounds misogynistic, then by all means, that's a conversation worth having. "That artwork you seem to enjoy or really want to make a comeback is actually really demeaning" is a respectful way to carry about a conversation, "Well then you're just a misogynist" pretty much closes the door. I think we're both arguing the same thing here, and I respect the position you're coming from. In my own experiences, however, even in the face of what might appear obvious, up to and including [URL="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial"]Suspiciously Specific Denials[/URL], the indirect and respectful approach is more less like to shut people (and threads) down, and far more likely to make headway. Which ultimately, I hope would be the goal. Of course, the "real life social justice education" that makes up a large part of my work is a hell of a lot different "arguments on the internet", so I may be engaging in wishful thinking here. Still, it'd be nice if the thread were last long enough to move on from whether said D&D artwork is misogynistic and on to whether said D&D artwork is [I]interesting. [/I]Of course, feel free to take all that with a grain of salt. As a male, I have the privilege to not feel personally offended by misogyny. But to respond to what you are responding to; even if a demeaning trope is still accepted by the wider audience (and I would argue that it is no longer), does not make it any less demeaning. The best we can hope for, in that instance, is that the particular media we enjoy don't enjoy in such low-brow behavior. That Wizards has, by and large, avoided such a trope deserves to be commended, not lambasted. [/QUOTE]

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