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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 4495124" data-attributes="member: 177">Well, I think you start out with a slightly flawed premise - that there's a way the PCs are "supposed" to deal with NPCs, and the world around them.  The implication is that they are doing it wrong, and your intended way was right.  I saw no mention of a prior agreement with the players on the game themes. Regardless of what the rulebooks might say - if you had not all explicitly agreed beforehand that they were supposed to be heroes, then they are under no obligation to play such, and doing what you prescribe here is being a bit of a jerk.I'm guessing that's not what you meant, though.  So, I will assume that the missing part here is that you specifically billed the game as heroic adventure, and that they are violating the genre they originally agreed to.At which point, I have to rather strongly disagree with you - "slowly screw with the players to teach them a lesson" is not a good plan.  When there's a problem, talk to the players.  If and only if they continue to claim they know they are supposed to be heroes, but have the characters continue to behaving in unheroic fashion, is there any teaching to be done.Then, I still have to disagree with you.  Behavior is altered by rewarding desired behavior, and providing disincentive to undesired behavior.  If they know they're supposed to be heroes, but aren't playing that way, making them the powerful villains of the piece is not a disincentive.  Honestly, if they jerk me around like that and lie to me about their intentions, I'm apt to just pack up my books and go home.  I don't have time for players who lie to me, and having the game fold up is a disincentive.If I were feeling a bit more poetic, I'd use somethign similar to your method, but without any of the implied glory of doom, and being the big villain of the piece.  If the players continue to violate the genre they agree to, they lose.That means they don't get the power and glory and fun.  That means the Good Guys are on their tails, and the BBEG that I originally intended for the campaign wins.  They end up dead, or poor, powerless, and friendless in a world that's been handed to someone else.  Then, I explain to them that if they want to play villains, or just kill things and take their stuff, I'm open to that kind of gaming - but not if they lie to me.</blockquote>

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