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<blockquote data-quote="Shroomy" data-source="post: 4522858" data-attributes="member: 32739">I have problems with both of those assumptions.&nbsp; First, I don't think that 3e stats are really objective statements about the game world; they're certainly more detailed and less abstracted than 4e stats, but they are built around a power level that exists in relation solely to the level of what the game assumes is a standard party of PCs.&nbsp; Though the execution is different in 4e, the exact same ideas underpin both systems, so by design, while a CR 1 monster is less powerful than a CR 30 monster and a Level 1 Monster is also less powerful than a Level 30 monster, all the measurements are in relation to the PCs' level.&nbsp; Both games are silent on how monster power levels work in relation to one another.The second assumption, that the 4e stats of a particular monster shift in relation to the number of monsters in an encounter is demonstrably false, as it is not supported by the rules.&nbsp; Minions exist as a distinct type of monster separate from the &quot;standard&quot; examples.&nbsp; They're often given names that stress that they are weaker (i.e. decrepit skeleton, zombie rotter, human rabble, lich vestige) or cannon fodder (i.e. the various types of legion devils), and there have been suggestions that DMs should allow PCs to be able to identify minions based on appearance.&nbsp; Now there is nothing preventing you from using the minion rules in such a way, but then, there is nothing preventing a 3.5e DM from doing some similar de-powering.&nbsp; I've seen suggestions from WoTC that at higher levels, it would be simpler to run low-level monsters as minions for ease of play, but this is more or less a house-ruled application of the minion rules, since those monsters would not have the higher defenses or damage output expected of an appropriate level minion, and in any case, has more to do with power levels than sheer numbers.I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;And no meaningful stats whatsoever beyond &quot;what the DM thinks&quot; if it's encountering people who aren't the PCs.&quot;&nbsp; I think that you are referring to the idea that 4e NPCs/monsters are not built using a system similar to PC creation.&nbsp; 4e does have rules and guidelines for creating monsters and NPCs; its not a completely arbitrary system.&nbsp; It is true that a lot of non-combat information is ultimately left to the DMs discretion, though I think setting skill levels in 4e is fairly trivial, as are target DCs if the PCs interact in some unexpected way (DMG pg. 42).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Shroomy, post: 4522858, member: 32739"] I have problems with both of those assumptions. First, I don't think that 3e stats are really objective statements about the game world; they're certainly more detailed and less abstracted than 4e stats, but they are built around a power level that exists in relation solely to the level of what the game assumes is a standard party of PCs. Though the execution is different in 4e, the exact same ideas underpin both systems, so by design, while a CR 1 monster is less powerful than a CR 30 monster and a Level 1 Monster is also less powerful than a Level 30 monster, all the measurements are in relation to the PCs' level. Both games are silent on how monster power levels work in relation to one another. The second assumption, that the 4e stats of a particular monster shift in relation to the number of monsters in an encounter is demonstrably false, as it is not supported by the rules. Minions exist as a distinct type of monster separate from the "standard" examples. They're often given names that stress that they are weaker (i.e. decrepit skeleton, zombie rotter, human rabble, lich vestige) or cannon fodder (i.e. the various types of legion devils), and there have been suggestions that DMs should allow PCs to be able to identify minions based on appearance. Now there is nothing preventing you from using the minion rules in such a way, but then, there is nothing preventing a 3.5e DM from doing some similar de-powering. I've seen suggestions from WoTC that at higher levels, it would be simpler to run low-level monsters as minions for ease of play, but this is more or less a house-ruled application of the minion rules, since those monsters would not have the higher defenses or damage output expected of an appropriate level minion, and in any case, has more to do with power levels than sheer numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by "And no meaningful stats whatsoever beyond "what the DM thinks" if it's encountering people who aren't the PCs." I think that you are referring to the idea that 4e NPCs/monsters are not built using a system similar to PC creation. 4e does have rules and guidelines for creating monsters and NPCs; its not a completely arbitrary system. It is true that a lot of non-combat information is ultimately left to the DMs discretion, though I think setting skill levels in 4e is fairly trivial, as are target DCs if the PCs interact in some unexpected way (DMG pg. 42). [/QUOTE]

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