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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ExploderWizard" data-source="post: 4639090" data-attributes="member: 66434">I will stand up and be counted as one who thinks the 20th level commoner was ridiculous<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />   4E is different though. Yes adventurers in any D&D can do things and take hits that would kill any real person.  Your 1E commoner example is perfect. Lets say this commoner allied himself with a D&D Hero to storm the castle of an evil baron. They walk side by side as catapults hurl rocks at them. They are both struck with large stones and each take 16 points of damage. The commoner is crushed-only his feet are visible beneath the rock. The D&D hero is struck solidly on the shoulder reducing his hp by about 50%. A retreat is called and the hero returns to camp. In 1E:The commoner (real person) is dead.The hero tends his wounds and sleeps. In the morning, that shoulder will be hurting, the hero will be less than 100% effective, but can fight again. In 4E:The commoner (real person) is dead.The hero tends his wounds and sleeps. In the morning he will be fit as a fiddle. There is no indication at all that he was injured and the hero fights again. The difference is that in addition to taking the kind of hits that kill a regular guy ( that PC's in every edition have been doing) the hero is instantly "reset" to full capacity no matter how severe the damage. The action movie examples tend to back up the high HP model rather than the surge model when you look at them. The action hero isn't taking a second wind in many of these situations. A lot of what appear to be surges are more like a high HP hero being in a fight, rolling crappy in the beginning, rallying, and rolling crits at the end of the fight while the opponents does the opposite.  If the hero used surges during a break to get back hp then he or she would be refreshed and at full capacity. When Rocky sits down in his corner after having his face turned to hamburger, Mick says " you're a bum! Get your ass back in there and give me a crit!!!" Rocky gets back up, as beat up as ever, rolls a 20 and wins the fight. His hp are still down. He didn't get to surge, he just performed at the critical moment to get the victory. Even though he is a hero, Rocky is still a person and won't be ready to box another match in 6 hours. A 4E Rocky would get a surge and some added bonus from the inspiring words of Mick the warlord. The damage and fatigue from getting punched would fade somewhat allowing him to continue. His stamina replenished, Rocky returns to the ring hitting Clubber Lang about 50% of the time until Clubber finally drops. Rocky takes a shower and prepares for tomorrows fight with Ivan Drago.</blockquote>

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