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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 4343596" data-attributes="member: 2020">You know what?&nbsp; I think the 3.5 Gestalt rules would have fixed this.&nbsp; Characters could finally have the best of both worlds.&nbsp; But we'll never know, since it was presented as an optional rule and had little time in play.&nbsp; &nbsp; I do think Gary Gygax deliberately created both concepts, and asked that you choose one or the other.&nbsp; They are classic concepts in fantasy, and he brought them into the game.&nbsp; &nbsp; It never worked, for those I played with.&nbsp; We saw all the problems you have pointed out.&nbsp; All of them.&nbsp; We could never find satisfaction within them.&nbsp; And we could not find a good alternative.&nbsp; I wish gestalt had existed back then!&nbsp; Hmmm ... in a sense, 4E is gestalt.&nbsp; Hmmm ... add in the older concepts, and perhaps we could create a hybrid ...&nbsp; &nbsp; (chuckles)&nbsp; &nbsp; Indeed.&nbsp; Well said!&nbsp; As I said:&nbsp; He's an elf, she's an elf, I'm an elf, don't you want to be an elf too?&nbsp; Nobody ever played them as elves.&nbsp; Nobody.&nbsp; (Heh, the real elves should be very offended, and get rid of all these imposters in their midst!)&nbsp; &nbsp; Again, you're dead on.&nbsp; My point was that, once multiclassing produced a glut of wizards, people became resentful because higher level wizards had great powers (they were supposed to) but had paid no higher price than anyone else to get them (they were NOT supposed to.)&nbsp; So the backlash against wizards began.&nbsp; That led to the Balance Movement.&nbsp; That led to nerfing of magic.&nbsp; That led ... to everything else.&nbsp; All started by those elves and their multiclassing.&nbsp; We should have just let EVERYONE multiclass and be anything they wanted to be, in the earlier editions.&nbsp; After all, if you're a wizard and try hard enough, you'll extend your life expectancy to as long as any elf.&nbsp; So the demihuman longevity doesn't mean a thing.&nbsp; And the races are balanced.&nbsp; All you OD&amp;D, 1E, 2E players out there, take note!&nbsp; &nbsp; Yep.&nbsp; : )&nbsp; Hehe.&nbsp; WELL PUT.&nbsp; EXACTLY!&nbsp; ( I'm a fighter/mage.&nbsp; I get all the benefits of the fighter, all the benefits of a mid-level mage, I know the game won't go past the level limits, and thus I Get My Cake And Eat It Too.&nbsp; Sorry humans, but we elves really ARE superior to you!)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A point made by many I played with.&nbsp; Again, perhaps all the classes should have been able to multiclass any way they wanted, no level limits (as per the gestalt in 3E.)&nbsp; Elves and others would have had minor racial benefits and their longevity, but I'm sure clever humans would have found longevity magic.&nbsp; The drow?&nbsp; That's another matter, since they had major class powers (50% magic resistance, and better at higher levels.)&nbsp; But then, drow were meant as NPCs ...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 4343596, member: 2020"] You know what? I think the 3.5 Gestalt rules would have fixed this. Characters could finally have the best of both worlds. But we'll never know, since it was presented as an optional rule and had little time in play. I do think Gary Gygax deliberately created both concepts, and asked that you choose one or the other. They are classic concepts in fantasy, and he brought them into the game. It never worked, for those I played with. We saw all the problems you have pointed out. All of them. We could never find satisfaction within them. And we could not find a good alternative. I wish gestalt had existed back then! Hmmm ... in a sense, 4E is gestalt. Hmmm ... add in the older concepts, and perhaps we could create a hybrid ... (chuckles) Indeed. Well said! As I said: He's an elf, she's an elf, I'm an elf, don't you want to be an elf too? Nobody ever played them as elves. Nobody. (Heh, the real elves should be very offended, and get rid of all these imposters in their midst!) Again, you're dead on. My point was that, once multiclassing produced a glut of wizards, people became resentful because higher level wizards had great powers (they were supposed to) but had paid no higher price than anyone else to get them (they were NOT supposed to.) So the backlash against wizards began. That led to the Balance Movement. That led to nerfing of magic. That led ... to everything else. All started by those elves and their multiclassing. We should have just let EVERYONE multiclass and be anything they wanted to be, in the earlier editions. After all, if you're a wizard and try hard enough, you'll extend your life expectancy to as long as any elf. So the demihuman longevity doesn't mean a thing. And the races are balanced. All you OD&D, 1E, 2E players out there, take note! Yep. : ) Hehe. WELL PUT. EXACTLY! ( I'm a fighter/mage. I get all the benefits of the fighter, all the benefits of a mid-level mage, I know the game won't go past the level limits, and thus I Get My Cake And Eat It Too. Sorry humans, but we elves really ARE superior to you!) A point made by many I played with. Again, perhaps all the classes should have been able to multiclass any way they wanted, no level limits (as per the gestalt in 3E.) Elves and others would have had minor racial benefits and their longevity, but I'm sure clever humans would have found longevity magic. The drow? That's another matter, since they had major class powers (50% magic resistance, and better at higher levels.) But then, drow were meant as NPCs ... [/QUOTE]

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