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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thasmodious" data-source="post: 4589147" data-attributes="member: 63272">There was nothing subtle about my post.  I even used CAPS.  And I stated what I was "trying" to say quite clearly.  I "defend" 4e when people are either incapable of understanding simplistic language or are being deliberately obtuse in an effort to express unreasoned nerd rage at change.  I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were arguing about the guidelines in the DMG because if your position, your "proof" is based on the PHB, its outright silly.  Just to be clear, this is the passage you are basing your position on:"Most of the time, you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you discover what the item is and what it does. You can identify one magic item per short rest.  Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item."Since you are attempting an as literal as possible reading of the rules, should we go over the opening phrase here?  Most of the time.  I would assume since we share a language we don't actually need to do this.The rules here do not define special abilities all characters have.  It discusses all the things that you were earlier saying was responsible for the mysteriousness of magic items.  The basic identification is done just like in the old days, you wave it around, tinker with it, pass it around the group and figure out what it does.  This works for the "regular" items, your +1 daggers and potions and what not.  Then it addresses other items - cursed, nonstandard, and powerful ones.  These may require considerably more effort.  Arcana checks (that would be the magical experts you mentioned earlier), quests, rituals, all the things you could want to make magic items mysterious are right there in the PHB.  The RAW in the PHB say "its relatively easy to figure out what simple items do but more unique and powerful items might require considerably more effort."  That pretty much covers it all and does what 4e does with a lot of things - puts it in the capable and creative hands of the players of the game, something that you seem very uncomfortable with.I know, I know, you shouldn't HAVE to... determine your own method/employ creativity/ establish your own rules for item identification that suit your preferences... In what way wasn't any of that clear?  Is it unclear in the same way that many aspects of 4e seem to be unclear to you?  No, 4e does not make items less mysterious than previous editions.  It leaves the level of mystery up to the DM.  Just like every other edition, it can be more or less mysterious as the DM presents it.  I quickly lost the idea that jumping off a 10' ledge while flapping my arms and shouting "shield" in all the languages my character knows was in some way intriguing and mysterious.  Nor do I accept that forcing PCs to carry around hundreds of gp worth of pearls and casting first level spells over and over makes magic items "mysterious and special".  It just makes them annoying and a money sink.  I've been houseruling identification since 1e, and pretty close to what 4e presents.  I don't make players jump through hoops to identify a +1 dagger, I don't like having to keep notes on all items so I can add the plusses to PC attacks in secret.  I don't like watching my players play out a bunch of silly actions trying to determine what an item does.  Mysterious items stay mysterious by employing exactly what the DMG and PHB suggest the DM do to achieve that effect.  You have room for research, consulting sages, special quests, rituals, adventure in other words.  But all that is reserved for items that deserve that kind of attention, the really special stuff.  However, if your PCs have to do all that everytime they pluck a magic knife off a dead orc then that is not a game I would want to play in.    4e makes items more special in comparison to 3e, where every 4th lvl NPC and monstrous humanoid warrior, fighter, or other meleeist in the world had a +1 weapon.  In 4e, monsters and NPCs don't often have magic items and if they do, at any given level, they are likely not as powerful as what the PCs carry.  Magic items are not just equipment you pluck off dead drow, but things you quest for, things you research and seek out.  Opening a chest feels special again.</blockquote>

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