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<blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 4392068" data-attributes="member: 3400">Maybe you couldn't but I could do all this in 3e. 1) Orc hordes without any leveled characters in it is very much 1e and has been passe since long before 4e. In 3e, you bet some of them would have levels, some quite substantial. After all, there were probably orcs out there who could punch either Legolas's or Gimli's ticket like Azog and Bolg were able to wreak havoc on powerful dwarven heroes of previous generations. 2) I wouldn't mistake the outcome of one attack to be something designed by the creation of a particular monster. I'd be more likely to assume that the fortification power of the mithril shirt negated the orc warrior's critical hit with the spear. Considering we'd be looking at triple damage from an orc with a substantial strength bonus (and possibly weapon specialization) on a lower-leveled halfling aristocrat/rogue, I'd say the attack wasn't exactly insignificant.But if I wanted some outcome along those lines, I'd be sure to give the orc some levels (at least 8 as a fighter or so) and give him improved critical.3) A cave troll, the way they seem defined in LotR, seems a bit tougher than&nbsp; a typical D&amp;D troll so that would probably increase his durability. Give him level as a barbarian or fighter would do quite a bit more. It's true that the fight probably wouldn't last as many rounds as a comparable one in 4e, but I'm not sure that 4e's take on things is the best one for D&amp;D in the first place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="billd91, post: 4392068, member: 3400"] Maybe you couldn't but I could do all this in 3e. 1) Orc hordes without any leveled characters in it is very much 1e and has been passe since long before 4e. In 3e, you bet some of them would have levels, some quite substantial. After all, there were probably orcs out there who could punch either Legolas's or Gimli's ticket like Azog and Bolg were able to wreak havoc on powerful dwarven heroes of previous generations. 2) I wouldn't mistake the outcome of one attack to be something designed by the creation of a particular monster. I'd be more likely to assume that the fortification power of the mithril shirt negated the orc warrior's critical hit with the spear. Considering we'd be looking at triple damage from an orc with a substantial strength bonus (and possibly weapon specialization) on a lower-leveled halfling aristocrat/rogue, I'd say the attack wasn't exactly insignificant. But if I wanted some outcome along those lines, I'd be sure to give the orc some levels (at least 8 as a fighter or so) and give him improved critical. 3) A cave troll, the way they seem defined in LotR, seems a bit tougher than a typical D&D troll so that would probably increase his durability. Give him level as a barbarian or fighter would do quite a bit more. It's true that the fight probably wouldn't last as many rounds as a comparable one in 4e, but I'm not sure that 4e's take on things is the best one for D&D in the first place. [/QUOTE]

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