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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4402859" data-attributes="member: 317">Ummm....you do realize ANYBODY in 3e could ride any kind of mount as well?  The ride skill was only applicable when you tried to perform some trick with the mount, like attack off it, make it jump over an obstacle, etc.  Plus, both 3e and 4e have the Mounted Combat feat, which is what a rider really needs in order to use a mount effectively in combat.As for training, look at 4e's Nature skill, and you see it covers teaching an animal new tricks or training.  The nature of the trick or training is left up to the DM and player, but its there.  Again, your arguement holds no water.  Flying mounts are also not the freebie a flight spell is.  First, there is the matter of procuring food, stabling, etc for it- and as most are carnivorous, that can be a problem (where do you get 50 lbs of meat per day to feed a griffin?).  Flying mounts can also be killed, which means you blew your 1000 gp.  You can't "kill" a fly spell, and magic items that provide flight are more difficult to destroy than killing a mount.  Mounts also are not perfectly maneuverable, and weather conditions can more easily affect them.  Hmmm....looks to me like 4e did make a distinction between its flight and the munchy 3e flight.As for how flight isn't as uber in 4 combat, look at the monsters a level 5 character in 3e faces compared to the monsters a level 22 character in 4e faces.  Very few of the 3e monsters have any inherent way to deal with flying characters.  In contrast, almost ALL of the 4e monsters have some way to deal with the flying characters (innate ranged attacks, powers, hindering flying opponents, buffing flying/ranged allies, flight, or teleport of their own.  Using the example given earlier in the thread of ranged ogres, they will have exactly a rat's @ss chance in hell of hitting a flying wizard, since they have crap Dex and their attacks with missile weapons (which would probably be thrown weapons to gain their Str bonus damage) will have crap range (javelin for example has range increment 30 feet).  So for example, the 3 ogre with a javelin hurling it at a flying wizard 120 feet away would have a +3 BAB -1 Dex - 6 for 4 range increments, for a whopping grand total of -4 to the attack roll.  This example is even being nice to the ogres, assuming the wizard stays 120 feet away- fireball has a 400 ft + 40 ft per level range!!!  The 3e wizard can just bop out to a safe range, and repeatedly fireball them or use whatever AOE spell he wishes to destroy them with a few token resistance spears hurled his direction.In 4e, those same ogres, are a MUCH greater threat to a flying wizard.  If they are using javelins (range 10/20 in 4e), they can hit a wizard ANYWHERE he would be in relation to them, as most wizard spells have range 10, with a few at range 20.  Now, our little squishy wizard can't be a chicken and stay way out or range and blast with impugnity.  The ogres get +13 to attack with javelins, for 1d8+4 damage, or a +11 at 20 square range.  And if you notice, ogres are NOT a level suitable challenge for a level 22 character (an ogre skirmisher with javelins is a level 8 enemy).  Ratchet that up to a level 22 enemy (a Death Giant for example, or an efreet fireblade or cinderlord) and our wizard is going to be toast pretty quick.So, I think I've clearly shown that the 4e designers DID think about the implecations of ranged and flying combat much moreso than 3e (heck they thought about EVERYTHING much moreso than 3e), and took steps to avoid the same pitfalls, or at least give opponents viable choices to counter flying/ranged threats.  I don't necessarily agree with everything they did in 4e, but overall as a system it holds together much better than 3e IME and IMO.  While 3e had some great innovations, it was at its core badly designed, and didn't scale well with character powers and abilities.  If folks would give 4e a shot rather than ranting about misinformed opinions regarding the ruleset and actually PLAY the darn thing, we wouldn't have so many flamebait threads with people trying to pick fights.</blockquote>

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